Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

[jim]

So? Running with no oil pressure for >10 sec at a time is way more
detrimental to the life of an engine than <10 micron particles.

Maybe yes if in fact that was the valid choice one faced. But unless
you are one of those guys on the internet with beater who swears he
would never use a Fram that isn't going to be the choice you're faced
with. That business of running with no oil pressure doesn't happen to
cars in good condition. If it did you can bet the dealerships would be
deluged with complaints because lots late model cars have Fram filters
on them and you can bet customers would be complaining.

Taxi service may actually be a good application for Fram filters as they
don't do many cold starts per mile compared to regular private use vehicles.

I've never seen any evidence that cold starts are a problem. I have
seen plenty of slant sixes with Fram filters and not a single one had
that problem. If there was a problem I would think the auto makers
would be concerned about engine damage from using Fram filters. But the
automakers aren't complaining about harm to new engines. The complaints
are all coming from guys on the internet with old worn out engines.

And what's with this cutting filters open and getting all panicked when
you see cardboard on the end of the filters? I used to have a chevy 283
with a canister filter. Every filter I put on that engine had cardboard
on both ends of the filter. For 30 years I saw that cardboard on every
filter I put on and every one I took off and not once did it look like
that was something I should be concerned about. Seemed like pretty
sturdy design to me.


-jim

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

In Waterloo actually - can't tell the difference driving through. Home of
the Blackberry. Stratford is just down the road - home of Fram/Allied
Signal Canadian operations (and Kralinator too) Right next to Cambridge,
home of the Corolla and a hop skip and a jump from Ingersol's CAMI plant
and Woodstock's RAV4 and Hino plants.

I knew Cambridge was the home of the Corolla (and Matrix and Pontiac
Vibe), but i didn't know there was a Hino plant! How long has that been
there?

When I was married to my wife, we used to go stay at her sister's house
in Oshawa...with an upstairs balcony view of the Oshawa Assembly plant.
There is a lot of the automotive industry, both the big guns, and the
supplers in Ontario. At least there was until Bush 1 signed the Fair Trade
Agreement. Then all the suppliers that had Canadian plants closed them up,
since they didn't have to meet the Canadian 1/3 content laws anymore...

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

The important point, for me, was that so many people jump on this
bandwagon and there is very little or no objective data on the subject.
This business of cutting
open filters and declaring them good or no good got a lot of this started,
and it
had no relevance at all.

LOL! Not really! Lowered oil pressure in three cars with Fram filters got
this thread started!

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

That can be a good thing or a bad thing. If you have an old
beater that is loaded up with an accumulation of those fines plus a worn
out oil pump from many years of pumping those small particles putting a
Fram filter on the engine can lead to trouble.

Oil pump is in fine condition. I took it off and tested it.

 

[clare]

My prejudice against Fram is not based on that, but on other factors.

1) Back in around 1996/1997 or so, I bought a '67 Dart. One thing I did
not like about the car was that when I'd start it first thing in the
morning, it would rattle and clank and the oil light would take a long
time to go out. (it'd quiet down and run silky smooth as soon as the
oil light went out, so it was obviously an oil pressure issue.) The
first time I changed the oil, I just went to the corner FLAPS and bought
whatever they offered - turned out to be a Wix filter. The filter I
took off was a Fram. Ever after, whenever I started it, it'd knock once
or twice and immediately run quiet, and the oil pressure light would go
out almost immediately. After asking online I found that this was not
uncommon. Subsequently my then-girlfriend bought a '69 Valiant with the
same engine and it exhibited the same symptoms and responded to the same
fix.

Funny thing, a slant six has mechanical lifters, so low oil pressure
does not cause the light clatter that say, a Chevy six, or a 318
exhibits. Rod knock on startup IS SERIOUS.

 

[clare]

The fact is it has been scientifically proven that Fram filters do a
better job than Wix for removing the smallest particles from the oil.
That was not determined by cutting filters open but by doing tests on
the oil after many miles of service. And the effects of not filtering
the finest particles takes many years and many miles to show up. The
look of the filter may be important to you, but many taxi and delivery
services use fram filters because they are more interested in the
results than what the filter looks like on the inside.



Because tests have shown they do remove smaller particles than wix or
purolator. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. If you have an old
beater that is loaded up with an accumulation of those fines plus a worn
out oil pump from many years of pumping those small particles putting a
Fram filter on the engine can lead to trouble.

-jim

They might filter the fine stuff when they stay together, but when
the paper end comes off the filter media, it dilters NOTHING.
And they DO come off. Not every one, but WAY too many.

 

[clare]

Maybe yes if in fact that was the valid choice one faced. But unless
you are one of those guys on the internet with beater who swears he
would never use a Fram that isn't going to be the choice you're faced
with. That business of running with no oil pressure doesn't happen to
cars in good condition. If it did you can bet the dealerships would be
deluged with complaints because lots late model cars have Fram filters
on them and you can bet customers would be complaining.

You'd be surprized how long an engine can run with NO OIL AT ALL,
particularly with solid lifters. - but there IS damage being done.
Do it too often, and the engine WILL fail.

Often several thousand miles without a cold start in large metro area
cabs.

I've never seen any evidence that cold starts are a problem. I have
seen plenty of slant sixes with Fram filters and not a single one had
that problem. If there was a problem I would think the auto makers
would be concerned about engine damage from using Fram filters. But the
automakers aren't complaining about harm to new engines. The complaints
are all coming from guys on the internet with old worn out engines.

And what's with this cutting filters open and getting all panicked when
you see cardboard on the end of the filters? I used to have a chevy 283
with a canister filter. Every filter I put on that engine had cardboard
on both ends of the filter. For 30 years I saw that cardboard on every
filter I put on and every one I took off and not once did it look like
that was something I should be concerned about. Seemed like pretty
sturdy design to me.

Aircraft filters are cuy open at EVERY oil change to check for metal
etc - and to verify the filtering capability as a secondary issue.

 

[clare]

I knew Cambridge was the home of the Corolla (and Matrix and Pontiac
Vibe), but i didn't know there was a Hino plant! How long has that been
there?

No Vibes out of Cambridge as far as I know, and the Hino plant has
been there 2 or 3 years.

When I was married to my wife, we used to go stay at her sister's house
in Oshawa...with an upstairs balcony view of the Oshawa Assembly plant.
There is a lot of the automotive industry, both the big guns, and the
supplers in Ontario. At least there was until Bush 1 signed the Fair Trade
Agreement. Then all the suppliers that had Canadian plants closed them up,
since they didn't have to meet the Canadian 1/3 content laws anymore...

Kitchener has lost the vast majority of it's automotive parts
manufacturing, and BOTH tire plants. Kitchener Frame, formerly Budd
Automotive, just closed for good last year. Almost lost lear seating
this year.. Lost most of the tool and die businresses too.

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

No Vibes out of Cambridge as far as I know, and the Hino plant has been
there 2 or 3 years.

The Vibe was being built on the same line as the Matrix. We used to see
them on the trucks with the..um...Matrices (?) being delivered!

Kitchener has lost the vast majority of it's automotive parts
manufacturing, and BOTH tire plants. Kitchener Frame, formerly Budd
Automotive, just closed for good last year. Almost lost lear seating this
year.. Lost most of the tool and die businresses too.

Both my Sister in law and her husband lost real good jobs when the Fair
Trade Agreement came on line. I don't know what...er, was it Mulroney at
the time? was thinking...

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

The complaints are all
coming from guys on the internet with old worn out engines.

Hmmm...change the filter, the oil pressure drops. On one car...ok..old
worn out engine.

Two cars? Well, maybe old worn out engines.

Three cars? I'm beginning to see a trend here.

And one of the old, worn out engines only has 139,000 miles on it, not
much for a Japanese car. And records I do have show oil changes every
4,500 miles.

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

You'd be surprized how long an engine can run with NO OIL AT ALL,
particularly with solid lifters. - but there IS damage being done. Do it
too often, and the engine WILL fail.

Which also gets me. Soobs have horizontally opposed engines, with the
cylinders lying flat just above the oil line. So, not all of the oil
drains out of the cylinders, so when you start, they aren't totally 'dry'
like an upright engine is.

 

[Nate Nagel]

Maybe yes if in fact that was the valid choice one faced. But unless
you are one of those guys on the internet with beater who swears he
would never use a Fram that isn't going to be the choice you're faced
with. That business of running with no oil pressure doesn't happen to
cars in good condition. If it did you can bet the dealerships would be
deluged with complaints because lots late model cars have Fram filters
on them and you can bet customers would be complaining.


I've never seen any evidence that cold starts are a problem. I have
seen plenty of slant sixes with Fram filters and not a single one had
that problem. If there was a problem I would think the auto makers
would be concerned about engine damage from using Fram filters. But the
automakers aren't complaining about harm to new engines. The complaints
are all coming from guys on the internet with old worn out engines.

And what's with this cutting filters open and getting all panicked when
you see cardboard on the end of the filters? I used to have a chevy 283
with a canister filter. Every filter I put on that engine had cardboard
on both ends of the filter. For 30 years I saw that cardboard on every
filter I put on and every one I took off and not once did it look like
that was something I should be concerned about. Seemed like pretty
sturdy design to me.

You haven't seen it so it isn't a problem. So why did I see it on two
different cars? Which is the sum total of my experience with slant
sixes? Meaning that Frams had a 100% failure rate for me on that engine?

No, they weren't "worn out beaters" (well, one *was* a beater but it had
a "fresh reman" engine in it - the other was all original with 80K
miles.) And what difference does it make anyway? You really mean to
say that a Wix filter can heal a worn out engine to the point that it
makes the oil pressure come up faster? Sounds kinda magical, but if so,
I'm gonna keep using Wix for sure!

nate

 

[nm5k]

You haven't seen it so it isn't a problem.  So why did I see it on two
different cars?  Which is the sum total of my experience with slant
sixes?  Meaning that Frams had a 100% failure rate for me on that engine?

No, they weren't "worn out beaters" (well, one *was* a beater but it had
a "fresh reman" engine in it - the other was all original with 80K
miles.)  And what difference does it make anyway?  You really mean to
say that a Wix filter can heal a worn out engine to the point that it
makes the oil pressure come up faster?  Sounds kinda magical, but if so,
I'm gonna keep using Wix for sure!

nate

Mine wasn't a beater either. Kinda funny that it broke in and ran
perfect with no oil pressure issues at all until I tried a Fram
filter.
I suspect some might find it hilarious that the problem vanished
once I took the Fram filter off and never returned.
Dunno about you Nate, but I was born yesterday, but not last
night. :/
Whether this has anything to do with the OP's problem I don't
know. I'd never heard of a Fram filter causing lower run pressures.
That's a new one on me, but there is no doubt at all that the
anti drain valves are fairly useless.
Normally, if one noticed a lower pressure by using a certain filter,
I would suspect it is restrictive, usually due to being a "super"
filtering model. But the orange Fram filter is not one of those.
It's a stock plain jane filter.
I'll be interested to hear what the pressures are when he changes
to another brand filter. I forgot what he said they are running as
far as pressure. In general, you usually want to see about 10
pounds of pressure for each 1000 rpm. IE: 3000 rpm, you should
see at least 30 lb's oil pressure.

 

[jim]

You haven't seen it so it isn't a problem.

Me and the car manufacturers and many knowledable mechanics haven't seen
it as a problem.

I have seen where a fram filter used on an old engine that previously
used another brand filter did plug up pretty damn fast. And when I
removed the Fram filter, it felt heavy like it was full of lead. That
happened in just an hour of engine operation. So yes I do get why some
people are having problems. But in my opinion the filter is not really
the cause.

So why did I see it on two
different cars? Which is the sum total of my experience with slant
sixes? Meaning that Frams had a 100% failure rate for me on that engine?

The point you can't seem to grasp is that the common denominator here
is not the Fram filter, but the application it is used on - an old
engine. The car manufacturers have not found a problem with Fram filters
on their late model engines.
Do you know for a fact that the tube on the slant six filter housing
was the correct length for the filter you installed? Do you know if
someone had removed or replaced that part and if replaced was it
original equipment? The answer to those questions is obviously no, but
yet you're superstitious belief is that the filter is to blame and not
your misapplication of the filter.
BTW I just looked up that part up and it is described as OIL FILTER
STANDPIPE/VALVE. That sounds to me like the engine came with a check
valve in the filter outlet tube. But that valve isn't going to help
prevent the symptoms you described if the tube (standpipe) is the wrong
length for the filter.

This old article from Popular Mechanics contains a short description of
the problem:

http://tinyurl.com/yzku2ps

No, they weren't "worn out beaters" (well, one *was* a beater but it had
a "fresh reman" engine in it - the other was all original with 80K
miles.) And what difference does it make anyway?

You tell me what difference it makes - I don't have the engine. If I had
the engine I could probably tell you where the problem is.

You really mean to
say that a Wix filter can heal a worn out engine to the point that it
makes the oil pressure come up faster? Sounds kinda magical, but if so,
I'm gonna keep using Wix for sure!

Yeah well maybe if a filter that removes more dirt from the oil had been
used all along there would never be a problem. But you and your
superstitions are free to do whatever you want.

-jim

 

[jim]

Mine wasn't a beater either.

Well if it was rebuilt it wasn't new and likely wasn't anywhere close to
being like original. Are you talking about a slant six engine?

perfect with no oil pressure issues at all until I tried a Fram
filter.

It's kinda suspicious that you can't keep your story straight.
Previously you said Fram was used right after the rebuild. Now you make
it sound like you used other filters and used the Fram much later. You
know anyone can make up a story and tell it on usenet.

-jim

 

[Vic Smith]

BTW I just looked up that part up and it is described as OIL FILTER
STANDPIPE/VALVE. That sounds to me like the engine came with a check
valve in the filter outlet tube. But that valve isn't going to help
prevent the symptoms you described if the tube (standpipe) is the wrong
length for the filter.

This old article from Popular Mechanics contains a short description of
the problem:

http://tinyurl.com/yzku2ps

The guy in the article said he had the same problem with all filters,
so that standpipe might be the answer.
I drove a '74 Dart with that 225 for years and never had an issue.
Lot's of voodoo here.
A knowledge of oil flow through a particular engine where Frams
supposedly cause problems would be useful.
I suspect most of the complaints about Fram have nothing to do with
drainback, but with resistance to flow.
Maybe air pocketing and how the particular system handles that.
Just a guess, though. But nothing an oil pressure gage couldn't
determine pretty quick with the right method.

--Vic

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

Mine wasn't a beater either. Kinda funny that it broke in and ran perfect
with no oil pressure issues at all until I tried a Fram filter.

I started this thread because a while ago I posted a post in the Soob
group about my '89 losing oil pressure. Now, the oil pressure wasn't
fantastic when I bought it, but it got worse, *FAST*! Then someone made a
remark about Fram oil filters. Now, I use Quaker State, Castrol and
Valvoline (Mostly QS and Castrol) in my engines; never the bargain
basement or Wal*Mart stuff. I get the oil at AutoZone,and they often have
a deal including a Fram filter, so I get them.

I'll be replacing the Fram on the Soob with a Wix this weekend, and we'll
see what happens...

It's just funny, on three different cars, after installing a Fram filter
the oil pressure suffered an immediate drop!

Is it a good filter? I hope so. I usually use the Extra Gaurd, and the
last 'special' was a Tough Gaurd, but still the pressure dropped...

 

[clare]

The Vibe was being built on the same line as the Matrix. We used to see
them on the trucks with the..um...Matrices (?) being delivered!


Both my Sister in law and her husband lost real good jobs when the Fair
Trade Agreement came on line. I don't know what...er, was it Mulroney at
the time? was thinking...

The Vibe was built at Nummi in California.

 

[clare]

Me and the car manufacturers and many knowledable mechanics haven't seen
it as a problem.

I have seen where a fram filter used on an old engine that previously
used another brand filter did plug up pretty damn fast. And when I
removed the Fram filter, it felt heavy like it was full of lead. That
happened in just an hour of engine operation. So yes I do get why some
people are having problems. But in my opinion the filter is not really
the cause.



The point you can't seem to grasp is that the common denominator here
is not the Fram filter, but the application it is used on - an old
engine. The car manufacturers have not found a problem with Fram filters
on their late model engines.
Do you know for a fact that the tube on the slant six filter housing
was the correct length for the filter you installed? Do you know if
someone had removed or replaced that part and if replaced was it
original equipment? The answer to those questions is obviously no, but
yet you're superstitious belief is that the filter is to blame and not
your misapplication of the filter.

They were all the same pump, regardless if it used the long or short
filter.The standpipe was long untill 1972 so the older engine could
not use the PH43 - only the PH8A (or equivalent) (Long filter)

The FL1A Motorcraft filter is a direct fit replacement for the PH8A
and has a VERY superior construction. The Napa Gold filter is almost
as good and around heare costs more. I believe the FL1A used to be
called the FL30001 - and it had a double sealed drainback valve .

BTW I just looked up that part up and it is described as OIL FILTER
STANDPIPE/VALVE. That sounds to me like the engine came with a check
valve in the filter outlet tube. But that valve isn't going to help
prevent the symptoms you described if the tube (standpipe) is the wrong
length for the filter.

There is no valve in the standpipe - or al least there wasn't in the
63 170, the 65 225 or the 69 225. (long standpipe) and I never had
problems using the long non-fram filters on ANY of my Mopars.

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

<SNIP>

Oh, yeah. I forgot. You guys already had your Thanksgiving...