Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

[Vic Smith]

"...15 years ago" - that's the problem with this whole thread. Everybody is
arguing antique anecdotal evidence and apparently no one has any actual
facts to contribute. For all we know from this discussion, they had one bad
production run in 1994 and everybody is still talking about it.

Try this experiment - the next time you change the oil filter, up end the
old one and see how long it take to drain out. I'll bet you find no
difference from one brand to another, I know I haven't. Nobody's ADBVs work
worth a damn.

The real issue is whether the filter media meets mfr's specs & that element
seems to never enter into the discussion.

Just for kicks, here's a look at filters one guy did.
http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy-updates.html

10 years old.
But you could study a filter today, and tomorrow they change it at the
factory.
I've used all kinds of filters, and my practice is to dump their
contents into the drain pan. They all dump their contents just fine.
Some might glug a bit more than others. BFG.
Never had a base down oil filter configuration. Most seem to have
been base-up at about 45 degrees. My Ford 352 was the only one
I can recall that was close to vertical - base up. Most of my cars
have been GM.
They'll dump some oil when removed. A rag is your friend. No big
deal.
How many here fill their new filter with oil? I never did.
Never noticed any undue lack of pressure when starting up with a dry
new filter either.
I think most lifter noise at startup is because they are cold, not
because they don't almost immediately pump up.
Anyway I don't pay much attention to filters, except I don't buy Fram.
Usually just go with AC.
Not because I know anything about them, but because the raps against
Fram filtered in long ago. Funny how a rep can stick, whether still
deserved or not.
Anyway, filter selection is mostly voodoo.
Never liked the idea of toilet paper oil filters, will say that.

--Vic

 

[Mike Hunter]

You are forgetting ALL oil filters have an internal pressure relief value.

 

[Kevin]

You are forgetting ALL oil filters have an internal pressure relief
value.

No they don`t, many of the cheep ones don`t have one to reduce costs.
KB

 

[clare]

Just for kicks, here's a look at filters one guy did.
http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy-updates.html

10 years old.
But you could study a filter today, and tomorrow they change it at the
factory.
I've used all kinds of filters, and my practice is to dump their
contents into the drain pan. They all dump their contents just fine.
Some might glug a bit more than others. BFG.
Never had a base down oil filter configuration. Most seem to have
been base-up at about 45 degrees. My Ford 352 was the only one
I can recall that was close to vertical - base up. Most of my cars
have been GM.
They'll dump some oil when removed. A rag is your friend. No big
deal.
How many here fill their new filter with oil? I never did.
Never noticed any undue lack of pressure when starting up with a dry
new filter either.
I think most lifter noise at startup is because they are cold, not
because they don't almost immediately pump up.
Anyway I don't pay much attention to filters, except I don't buy Fram.
Usually just go with AC.
Not because I know anything about them, but because the raps against
Fram filtered in long ago. Funny how a rep can stick, whether still
deserved or not.
Anyway, filter selection is mostly voodoo.
Never liked the idea of toilet paper oil filters, will say that.

--Vic

About 4 years ago, just before I got rid of our 1988 3.0 liter New
Yorker it got a Fram filter installed - and the lifters clattered on
startup - about 30 seconds on a warm day, up to 90 seconds on a cooler
day. oil pressure took longer to come up. I didn't leave it on for the
full 5000Km - changed it to a Wix manufactured Napa filter and the
clatter went away - immediately.

 

[clare]

You are forgetting ALL oil filters have an internal pressure relief value.

Not true. Some depend on the bypass valve on the car.
Carvair was a case in point. Filter bypass is in the filter base.

 

[hls]

Everybody is
arguing antique anecdotal evidence and apparently no one has any actual
facts to contribute. For all we know from this discussion, they had one
bad
production run in 1994 and everybody is still talking about it.

You got that right!

 

[Nate Nagel]

You got that right!

meanwhile Wix, Purolator, and Champion Labs have NEVER had a bad run
significant enough to register on our collective radar screens. 'nuff said.

nate

 

[clare]

You got that right!

Been a lot more than one "bad run", both before and after 1994.

Fram plant (allied signal) in Canada was about 35 miles from here and
an aquaintance several years back used to work there.

He jumped ship to Kralinator IIRC, have lost contact with him since

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

meanwhile Wix, Purolator, and Champion Labs have NEVER had a bad run
significant enough to register on our collective radar screens. 'nuff
said.

nate

We're going to try to get the Caravan into our guitar player's shop to do
the brakes, and at the same time I'm going to have him get me a Wix filter
for the Soob. It's 800 miles early, but the oil p dropped and started that
horrible clacking noise again. It's supposed to be nice Sat and Sun, so
I'll do an early oil change.

Results posted when I do.

Note: changing the oil does not always result in stopping the clacking...

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

Been a lot more than one "bad run", both before and after 1994.

Fram plant (allied signal) in Canada was about 35 miles from here and an
aquaintance several years back used to work there.

He jumped ship to Kralinator IIRC, have lost contact with him since

Oh, yeah. You're Canadian eh. Did you once say you're near Kitchener?

 

[C. E. White]

OK. I almost asked which side of the filter you called base. FYI unless
you have a leak in the plumbing or oil pump, there should always be a
syphon back to the pan even if the filter has the inlet facing up. If
there is no check valve that keeps the oil from draining back to the pan
it will syphon back.

Most filters have an anti-drainback valve (or if not, then there is usually
one elsewhere in the system). On Ford modular V8, if you get a filter with a
marginal anti-drain back vlave, then you are likely to get chain rattle if
the engine sets over an extended period of time. The cam drive chains are
tensioned by oil pressure, and if the oil drains out of the system, it take
a heartbeat to build up pressure to the point that it can tension the
chains. During this period, you can hear the chains rattle.

My personal experience is that I know for a fact that large fleets of
b-100 dodge vans with slant sixes were using Fram filters back in the
70's (early 80's too IIRC) without any problem. So I tend to believe
mechanics that I know were handling Fram filters every day versus
believing someone whose stated position is they never ever handle a Fram
filter.

Fram filter may be just fine 99% of the time, but I don't like the way they
are made. I don't like the paper end caps, the sloppy gluing, the crummy
bypass valve, or the hard rubber anti-drain back valve of the standard
orange FRAM filters. The higher priced Tough Guard filters are better, but
cost more than better quality Motorcraft or Wix filters.

I recall there was an issue with the slant six oil filters. Sometime
back in the 60's or early 70's they changed the size of the filter on
some slant sixes to a shorty version (IIRC trucks had an extra heavy
duty version). The problem was some people used the old long filters
thinking that would give them better protection. What happened when the
long filter was used in this application was the filter would have an
air pocket trapped in the top of the filter. That air bubble would be
compressed when the engine was running and the filter behaved more or
less normally while the engine ran. But when the engine was turned off
the compressed air bubble would expand and push the oil out into the
engine. That meant when you re-started the engine it need to push that
quart or so of oil back into the filter before the engine would get any
oil pressure. An incorrect interpretation of what was happening under
those circumstances may be how this superstitious belief about Fram
filters and slant sixes got started.

You can find plenty of horror stories regarding FRAM filters. I am sure you
can find some related to other brands as well, but I think FRAM filters have
generated more horror stories than all the others combined.

I don't buy the compressed air theory. I've seen filters installed at all
sorts of angles. They all get air in them when the engine is shut down.

Ed

 

[C. E. White]

No they don`t, many of the cheep ones don`t have one to reduce costs.
KB

I've cut open a lot of engine oil filters and never seen one (even very
cheap ones) that did not have some sort of pressure relief valve (usually
referred to as a by-pass valve). Some cheap filters (and not so cheap
filters) use a system where the flter element is pressed onto the base by a
spring. If the pressure differential across the filter exceeds some level,
the filter element lifts off the base, allowing the oil to flow directly
from the inlet to the outlet side and bypass the element. Most filters have
a bypass valve on the top of the filter element. These vary greatly in
quality. Many Motorcraft flters have a more elaborate bypass valve at the
base end of the filter. In theory this is better becasue it doesn't allow
for the bypassed oil to wash particiles out of the filter media back into
the engine.

Ed

 

[clare]

Oh, yeah. You're Canadian eh. Did you once say you're near Kitchener?

In Waterloo actually - can't tell the difference driving through.
Home of the Blackberry. Stratford is just down the road - home of
Fram/Allied Signal Canadian operations (and Kralinator too)
Right next to Cambridge, home of the Corolla and a hop skip and a jump
from Ingersol's CAMI plant and Woodstock's RAV4 and Hino plants.

 

[hls]

meanwhile Wix, Purolator, and Champion Labs have NEVER had a bad run
significant enough to register on our collective radar screens. 'nuff
said.

nate

The important point, for me, was that so many people jump on this bandwagon
and there is very little or no objective data on the subject. This business
of cutting
open filters and declaring them good or no good got a lot of this started,
and it
had no relevance at all.

 

[Ed White]

The important point, for me, was that so many people jump on this bandwagon
and there is very little or no objective data on the subject.  This business
of cutting
open filters and declaring them good or no good got a lot of this started,
and it
had no relevance at all.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I disagree. Examining the components that make up a filter is a first
step. You might not be able to determine the actual quality of the
filter material, but you certianly can see a major difference in
quality between a regular grade FRAM filter and a WIX or Motorcraft
filter. I've cut open numerous used filter and more than once I've
seen FRAMs with detached end caps. The regular grade FRAM filter may
be adequate for the job, but a look at the insides of regular grade
FROM filters convined me that they are not as good as filters from
Motorcraft or Wix that have comparable (or even lower) prices.

FRAM does not claim to have particuarly good filtering efficiency, and
they do appear to have cut corners on the interior construction. So in
my mind the question is not if FRAM filters are OK, the question is,
Given that FRAM filters are not particualrly cheap, why would I buy
one?

Ed

 

[Nate Nagel]

We're going to try to get the Caravan into our guitar player's shop to do
the brakes, and at the same time I'm going to have him get me a Wix filter
for the Soob. It's 800 miles early, but the oil p dropped and started that
horrible clacking noise again. It's supposed to be nice Sat and Sun, so
I'll do an early oil change.

Results posted when I do.

Note: changing the oil does not always result in stopping the clacking...

*chuckle* no it does not...

once upon a time I bought a BMW 535i with high miles and an exhaust leak
(but near pristine body and interior)

had the exhaust leak fixed and adjusted the valves (solid lifter cam)

noise did not go away...

spun a rod bearing a couple kilomiles later

Actually had the engine replaced with a junkyard motor but sold the car
when I moved to VA. Was a great car but the cost of rebuilding the
suspension (would have needed it soon enough) and buying new wheels to
replace the original metric TRX wheels was more than the car was worth

nate

 

[Nate Nagel]

The important point, for me, was that so many people jump on this bandwagon
and there is very little or no objective data on the subject. This
business of cutting
open filters and declaring them good or no good got a lot of this
started, and it
had no relevance at all.

My prejudice against Fram is not based on that, but on other factors.

1) Back in around 1996/1997 or so, I bought a '67 Dart. One thing I did
not like about the car was that when I'd start it first thing in the
morning, it would rattle and clank and the oil light would take a long
time to go out. (it'd quiet down and run silky smooth as soon as the
oil light went out, so it was obviously an oil pressure issue.) The
first time I changed the oil, I just went to the corner FLAPS and bought
whatever they offered - turned out to be a Wix filter. The filter I
took off was a Fram. Ever after, whenever I started it, it'd knock once
or twice and immediately run quiet, and the oil pressure light would go
out almost immediately. After asking online I found that this was not
uncommon. Subsequently my then-girlfriend bought a '69 Valiant with the
same engine and it exhibited the same symptoms and responded to the same
fix.

2) Lots of anecdotal reports of Frams failing at the crimp between the
base and can on a cold start on watercooled VW engines (which use heavy
oil - recommended xW40 or xW50 - and can develop 100 PSI or more on a
cold start, I've seen this myself on cars equipped with an oil pressure
gauge) I never experienced this myself, as by the time I got my first
VW I was already soured on Fram by my slant six experiences. In fact, I
ran a Canton/Mecca filter on my Scirocco because I thought I was going
to keep that car forever (and in retrospect, I should have.)

nate

 

[jim]

I disagree. Examining the components that make up a filter is a first
step. You might not be able to determine the actual quality of the
filter material, but you certianly can see a major difference in
quality between a regular grade FRAM filter and a WIX or Motorcraft
filter. I've cut open numerous used filter and more than once I've
seen FRAMs with detached end caps. The regular grade FRAM filter may
be adequate for the job, but a look at the insides of regular grade
FROM filters convined me that they are not as good as filters from
Motorcraft or Wix that have comparable (or even lower) prices.

The fact is it has been scientifically proven that Fram filters do a
better job than Wix for removing the smallest particles from the oil.
That was not determined by cutting filters open but by doing tests on
the oil after many miles of service. And the effects of not filtering
the finest particles takes many years and many miles to show up. The
look of the filter may be important to you, but many taxi and delivery
services use fram filters because they are more interested in the
results than what the filter looks like on the inside.

FRAM does not claim to have particuarly good filtering efficiency, and
they do appear to have cut corners on the interior construction. So in
my mind the question is not if FRAM filters are OK, the question is,
Given that FRAM filters are not particualrly cheap, why would I buy
one?

Because tests have shown they do remove smaller particles than wix or
purolator. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. If you have an old
beater that is loaded up with an accumulation of those fines plus a worn
out oil pump from many years of pumping those small particles putting a
Fram filter on the engine can lead to trouble.

-jim

 

[Nate Nagel]

The fact is it has been scientifically proven that Fram filters do a
better job than Wix for removing the smallest particles from the oil.
That was not determined by cutting filters open but by doing tests on
the oil after many miles of service. And the effects of not filtering
the finest particles takes many years and many miles to show up. The
look of the filter may be important to you, but many taxi and delivery
services use fram filters because they are more interested in the
results than what the filter looks like on the inside.

So? Running with no oil pressure for >10 sec at a time is way more
detrimental to the life of an engine than <10 micron particles.

Taxi service may actually be a good application for Fram filters as they
don't do many cold starts per mile compared to regular private use vehicles.

nate

 

[hls]

My prejudice against Fram is not based on that, but on other factors.

1) Back in around 1996/1997 or so, I bought a '67 Dart. One thing I did
not like about the car was that when I'd start it first thing in the
morning, it would rattle and clank and the oil light would take a long
time to go out. (it'd quiet down and run silky smooth as soon as the oil
light went out, so it was obviously an oil pressure issue.) The first
time I changed the oil, I just went to the corner FLAPS and bought
whatever they offered - turned out to be a Wix filter. The filter I took
off was a Fram. Ever after, whenever I started it, it'd knock once or
twice and immediately run quiet, and the oil pressure light would go out
almost immediately. After asking online I found that this was not
uncommon. Subsequently my then-girlfriend bought a '69 Valiant with the
same engine and it exhibited the same symptoms and responded to the same
fix.

I understand your personal feelings about Fram. I dont use them either
anymore,
but have never had one fail on me. (I prefer not to swim upstream on
matters like this).
I am talking strictly about hard data, and there is little or none available
on filters
in general. I am sure the data exists, but extracting it is like pulling
teeth.

2) Lots of anecdotal reports of Frams failing at the crimp between the
base and can on a cold start

Yeah, Ive heard this sort of anecdotal story before, but I have never
experienced
it, nor do I know anyone who has. It could be true....or not.