Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

[Vic Smith]

no, just because they're a pathological liar. Keeping what remains of
Usenet useful is dependent on judicious filtering to be able to see the
remaining useful content.

Far as I've seen, it's a case of disagreement, not lying.
Open discourse.
That's what it's all about, baby!

--Vic

 

[jim]

In clean dry conditions with 2000 mile oil changes, using today's
oils,many engines would live a very long life WITHOUT a filter - and
in many cases longer than with a bad filter (no drainback dry-start
issues)

Heck, my 1949 VW only had a cupshaped flyscreen and IT had something
well over 200,000 MILES on it, in the hot, dusty, and humid
(alternately) southern Zambia conditions.
It had apparently had a valve job, but nothing else. (didn't have
enough power to hurt itself, I always said) before I got it in 1973.

If you had bought a new vw bug in 1973 it would still not have had a
filter for the oil. One thing it had that compensated for lack of filter
besides the screen was an easy way to clean out the crud that settled in
the bottom.

-jim

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

Who was it in the Subaru group that mentioned my low oil pressure might be
caused by my using Fram oil filters?

There may be something to this.

OK....changed the oil in the Soob today ,a dn installed a Wix filter.
Just by lokking at it it appeared to be a better made filter.

No change in oil pressure...

However that horrible clacking noise went away in about 2 minutes, after
clacking for the past week. Previously, changing oil did NOT eliminate the
clacking noise once it started.

Filter change do that? I don't know. I don't care. It stopped.

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

So they may or may not be the same person but I thought that "Mike" was
implying that he was "Jim."

No, 'jim' is a transplant from the Honda group. They must have all plonked
him over there...

 

[jim]

No, 'jim' is a transplant from the Honda group. They must have all plonked
him over there...

Were you born brain dead or do you take medication for that?

 

[Kevin]

That is what independent claims adjusters are for



Or maybe its just the bogey man out to get you.



No its not at all the same. Using non-certified products will void
your warranty. If Fram filters disintegrate then the automakers would
have literally thousands and thousands of claims against fram. There
would be class action lawsuits. It wouldn't just be rumor and
superstition on usenet.




The people I know who have the longest lived engines use Fram filters.
I know a guy who bought a new GTO in the mid 60s when he got out of
the service and still drives it today. He claims his secret is to
change the filter every 2000 miles and change the oil every other
filter change. The engine is pristine and never had a problem. Just
about everything else on the car has been replaced or rebuilt. But you
are right if you aren't going to be willing to deal with the rest of
the car there is little point in doing the maintenance that keeps the
engine running good that long.

-jim

I have seen with my own eyes the results of a fram filter comming
apart and filling the system with the crap the filter is made of. It
destroyed the eng. pluged all the oil passages. This was when I worked
in a Ford Dealership years ago. Fram basicly told us to go fork
ourselves because they had many more lawyers on retainer than the cust
would spend. Those guarentys ARE a joke. and I wouldn`t use a fram
filter if they gave me a life time supply of the junk. KB

 

[clare]

If you had bought a new vw bug in 1973 it would still not have had a
filter for the oil. One thing it had that compensated for lack of filter
besides the screen was an easy way to clean out the crud that settled in
the bottom.

-jim

SOME of the crud.
Didn't hold much oil either!!

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

Were you born brain dead or do you take medication for that?

No. I read your tirades and it drove me mad.

 

[Tony D.]

It certainly has. This business of getting on usenet and slamming Fram
filters for no good reason has been going on for way way too long. There
is no reliable data or evidence to support these slams but the
perpetrators think they can gang up and bully everybody else into
agreeing with them.




I don't have an opinionated world view. Your the one promoting
opinionated superstitious beliefs. My personal belief is that the
difference between one filter brand and another doesn't amount to hill
of beans as far as the overall effects it has on an engine. Anybody can
use any filter that is designed for the application and change it before
it is saturated with dirt and the chance of having a problem are
practically nil. You can apply the same logic to the filter in a vacuum
cleaner.

There is no evidence that there is any greater risk when using one
brand as compared to another. The way things are nowadays the average
engine will outlast the rest of the car if you just follow the
recommended maintenance schedule.

-jim

That's what makes you so incredibly stupid. There have been MANY tests
of oil filters. The Fram crap legend comes from people tearing them
apart and finding them to be crap compared to other makes a few dozen
times.

And your other comment about tests being "meaningless" unless compared
to the mfg "recommended filter" is doubly stupid simply because Mopar.
Autolite, Delco, etc, etc do not make filters, they buy them, and they
buy them from different makers constantly.

 

[jim]

That's what makes you so incredibly stupid. There have been MANY tests
of oil filters. The Fram crap legend comes from people tearing them
apart and finding them to be crap compared to other makes a few dozen
times.

Yes, so does that mean they are really crap or just that dozens of
people have all come to the same erroneous conclusions? I mean, none of
these people have any expertise in the manufacture and design of filters
or lubricating systems. And of course when someone questions whether one
can tell anything about how well a filter works by looking at it, some
of these dozens of people get insulted that there judgment has been
called into doubt and so they make up a story that they think proves
they weren't wrong.

And your other comment about tests being "meaningless" unless compared
to the mfg "recommended filter" is doubly stupid simply because Mopar.
Autolite, Delco, etc, etc do not make filters, they buy them, and they
buy them from different makers constantly.

Yes. How clever of you to notice that.

Here's the comment I made:

"The test will only be meaningful and valid
if you go to the dealer and get the manufacturers
recommended filter"

That remark was intended to be doubly stupid. This is because the
"test" itself to which I was referring was already doubly (or more)
stupid. The car in question was a Subaru and if the guy performing the
test had taken my advice and gone to the Subaru dealer for a filter,
then the filter he put on the car would have been manufactured by Fram
and the results of his test would have been no different than if the
"test" was done with any other brand.

-jim

 

[C. E. White]

The fact is it has been scientifically proven that Fram filters do a
better job than Wix for removing the smallest particles from the
oil.
That was not determined by cutting filters open but by doing tests
on
the oil after many miles of service. And the effects of not
filtering
the finest particles takes many years and many miles to show up. The
look of the filter may be important to you, but many taxi and
delivery
services use fram filters because they are more interested in the
results than what the filter looks like on the inside.



Because tests have shown they do remove smaller particles than wix
or
purolator. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. If you have an
old
beater that is loaded up with an accumulation of those fines plus a
worn
out oil pump from many years of pumping those small particles
putting a
Fram filter on the engine can lead to trouble.

Who's tests have shown that? I've read everything FRAM calims, and
they don't claim to be better than WIX. I can't find numbers for
Motorcraft, so I can't be sure that they are better than FRM filters,
but I'll bet they are.

And remember, removing particles below a certain size is not
important. What is important is removing as many as possible of
particles that can damage your engine. If you remove a lot of very
small, non-harmful particles, all you are doing is pluggin up the
filter sooner and reducing flow through the filter element, resulting
in the filter going into bypass mode, and in this case, you aren't
filtering anything.

Of course with a FRAM, this might not matter, becasue the crappy end
caps often come loose.

Ed

 

[jim]

Who's tests have shown that?

The SAE formulates tests that manufacturers must pass to meet engine
manufacturer requirements. Among those test are several that determine
the filters efficiency at keeping the oil clean by removing particles of
various sizes.

http://books.sae.org/book-hs-806/2009

I've read everything FRAM calims, and
they don't claim to be better than WIX.

Could well be. I haven't read anywhere close to all the literature Fram
has published.

I can't find numbers for
Motorcraft, so I can't be sure that they are better than FRM filters,
but I'll bet they are.

That sounds like your every day typical Fram superstition . You probably
don't even think you need a definition of "better" to make a statement
like that.

And remember, removing particles below a certain size is not
important. What is important is removing as many as possible of
particles that can damage your engine.

The smallest particles do cause wear just not as much wear or as fast.
So it is purely a question of how long you intend to make the engine
last. It makes no sense to a new car buyer that doesn't intend to keep
the car past 100k miles to go to the expense and trouble to do
maintenance with the goal of making the engine last 500k miles. That is
a complete waste of their time and money. But if someone does happen to
want to make it last that long then they will need to do something about
keeping the engine clean. And that means doing something to keep the
small particles from accumulating.

If you remove a lot of very
small, non-harmful particles, all you are doing is pluggin up the
filter sooner and reducing flow through the filter element, resulting
in the filter going into bypass mode, and in this case, you aren't
filtering anything.

The procedure to prevent that is called an oil and filter change.

But your analysis is correct. If the filter removes finest particles
efficiently and you have an engine that is loaded up with years of
accumulation of fine particles then yes the filter will be more likely
to plug up. So yes if you put a higher efficiency filter on an old
dirty engine you should be aware that it could load up sooner than a
filter that is not as efficient at removing the smallest particles.

Of course with a FRAM, this might not matter, becasue the crappy end
caps often come loose.

HA HA HA. So another fool who thinks all he needs is a hack saw and he
becomes an expert at oil filter manufacture and design. FYI the end caps
are trapped inside the filter. The only way they can move even if there
was no glue holding them is if you cut the filter apart. There is no
place for the end caps to go. Its absolutely ludicrous that you would
you think the heavy reinforced fiber material on the ends is going to
be the weak point of filter when every filter on the market have all
this fiber material that is much lighter and not as well supported. Your
claim that the end caps often come loose is typical of the Fram bashers
mythology. What exactly is the failure mode for these end caps. Describe
exactly what happens with these end caps when they come loose. And I
should warn you if you make something up out of thin air its going
sound like an obvious lie, because there is really no failure mode for
these filters at all that involves the end caps.

-jim

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

OK....changed the oil in the Soob today ,a dn installed a Wix filter. Just
by lokking at it it appeared to be a better made filter.

No change in oil pressure...

However that horrible clacking noise went away in about 2 minutes, after
clacking for the past week. Previously, changing oil did NOT eliminate the
clacking noise once it started.

Filter change do that? I don't know. I don't care. It stopped.

Let's revise that. Not only has the clattering gone away, but there has
been a noticable rise in oil pressure, esp at higher revs. Oil pressure
goes much higher than it did before, and does not bottom to 0 on the gauge...

 

[Nate Nagel]

Let's revise that. Not only has the clattering gone away, but there has
been a noticable rise in oil pressure, esp at higher revs. Oil pressure
goes much higher than it did before, and does not bottom to 0 on the gauge...

Just for completeness' sake, I ASSume the same brand/weight oil both
times 'round? Or did you only top up and not change the oil?

nate

 

[C. E. White]

In clean dry conditions with 2000 mile oil changes, using today's
oils,many engines would live a very long life WITHOUT a filter - and
in many cases longer than with a bad filter (no drainback dry-start
issues)

I definitely agree with your comment.

In my opinion, a good quality air filter is much more important to the life
of your engine than the oil filter. The air filter can keep contaminants out
of the engine and oil system. An oil filter can only remove what is already
circulating in the engine.

Ed

 

[clare]

The SAE formulates tests that manufacturers must pass to meet engine
manufacturer requirements. Among those test are several that determine
the filters efficiency at keeping the oil clean by removing particles of
various sizes.

http://books.sae.org/book-hs-806/2009



Could well be. I haven't read anywhere close to all the literature Fram
has published.


That sounds like your every day typical Fram superstition . You probably
don't even think you need a definition of "better" to make a statement
like that.


The smallest particles do cause wear just not as much wear or as fast.
So it is purely a question of how long you intend to make the engine
last. It makes no sense to a new car buyer that doesn't intend to keep
the car past 100k miles to go to the expense and trouble to do
maintenance with the goal of making the engine last 500k miles. That is
a complete waste of their time and money. But if someone does happen to
want to make it last that long then they will need to do something about
keeping the engine clean. And that means doing something to keep the
small particles from accumulating.

The large particles cause the fastest and most severe wear to the most
parts of the engine. Small amounts of very fine particles wear areas
with tight tolerances - things like hydraulic lifters.

Cheap filters use Cellulose filter media. Better filters use synthetic
media, and the best filters use either "micro-glass" of extremely fine
metal screens.

Some research done by GM in recent years shows ta "Typical low cost
oil filter" will remove about 40% of particles in 8 to 10 micron range
Typical OEM oil filter will remove about 72% of particles in 8 to 10
micron range .
The best full flow filters tested catch 99% of 10 micron particles
and up to 95% of 5 micron particles.

Many "particles" in the oil are less than 5 microns - some even
sub-micron - and these cause very little wear, if any. HOWEVER,
submicrom iron particles act as a type of catalyst in relation to oil
oxidayion - and there is some evidence that removing these fine
particles magnetically CAN extend the life of engine oil, as well as
automatic transmission fluids. This is one reason magnets in
transmission pans, on drain plugs, and even in some filters, can be
beneficial.

The drainback valve is VERY IMPORTANT on applications that do not
mount with ehe "hole" up. A leaky drainback valve will allow the crud
captured in the case of the filter to return, with the oil, into the
crank-case. Not good. This is over and above the problem with possible
dry starts due to filter drainage.

Bypass valves are important too - not necessarilly that they need to
work - with the right oil weight anf timely changes the bypass should
never come into play - but they MUST SEAL - otherwize unfiltered oil
goes through the engine.

The big problem I see with "paper" end caps on the element is it is
hard to assure a good, positive, repeatable seal at the bypass valve.

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

Just for completeness' sake, I ASSume the same brand/weight oil both times
'round? Or did you only top up and not change the oil?

nate

I have been using QS Hi-Mileage oil with Slick 50 for the past 3 oil
changes, 10W30 or 10W40, depending on when it was changed.

Some say Slick 50 isn't good all the time, so this time it got Mobil Clean
5000, and since winter is coming, 10W30.

 

[C. E. White]

The SAE formulates tests that manufacturers must pass to meet
engine
manufacturer requirements. Among those test are several that
determine
the filters efficiency at keeping the oil clean by removing
particles of
various sizes.

http://books.sae.org/book-hs-806/2009

Do you have any idea what the test actually requires? Pointing at an
abstract is a waste of time. Fram actually provides a brief but
interesting description of these tests at
http://www.fram.com/carcare/faq.php#q9 .

Could well be. I haven't read anywhere close to all the literature
Fram
has published.

I should not have said everything...my mistake. An accurate statement
would be that I have read all of the literature I could easily obtain
from FRAM.

You might want to read http://www.fram.com/carcare/faq.php

From http://www.fram.com/carcare/faq.php#q4 :

"FRAM® Extra Guard® Oil Filter for the average motorist who commutes
regularly to work, the local store and occasionally embarks on a long
road trip. FRAM® Extra Guard® offers 96% single pass efficiency....."

96% is not particualrly good....

From http://www.wixfilters.com/productinformation/gff_oilfilters.html

"SAE J806 tests prove that WIX oil filters hold 45% more dirt than the
leading national brand -...." We all know that the leading national
brand is FRAM... I suppose Wix might lie...but why would you suppose
they are more likely to lie than FRAM?

While you are rading FRAM literature, you might also read
http://www.fram.com/pdf/FluidFilterRating.pdf and/or
http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/89-5R3.html. This rating
scheme is designed primarily for hydraulic filters, but it can apply
to lube oil filters as well. Too bad they don't provide this rating
information for their fitlers. WIX does - for example, see
http://www.wixfilters.com/filterlookup/PartDetail.asp?Part=51372 . I
am more inclined to trust a company that provided more and better
quality information, instead of vauge advertising copy.

That sounds like your every day typical Fram superstition . You
probably
don't even think you need a definition of "better" to make a
statement
like that.

Better would be - better filtering efficiency, better capaicty, better
construction, etc. Motorcraft doesn't make the sort of statements that
WIX does about being x% better than FRAM. They only say "Efficient
Filter Media; Re-engineered media increases Motorcraft® filters'
dirt-collecting capability, allowing them to capture more
engine-harming particles than ever before." This is just advertising
copy from http://www.motorcraft.com/products.do?item=13 . Still, I
feel confident a Motorcraft Filter is at least as good as a standard
Fram at removing contaminants.

http://www.documents.dgs.ca.gov/ofa/FAMS/evaloilfilters.pdf is a long
paper detailing the potential advantages of installing bypass type
filters on larger vehicles (truck and buses) and extending oil change
intervals for all vehicles. As part of the study they compared FRAM X2
filters (the really expensive ones that claim to be super good) to
standard Car Quest Filters. Here is what they found:

"No differences could be ascertained between the Fram X2 and the
standard Car Quest filters performance."

Most likely the Car Quest Filters were private label WIX filters. So
at least as far as this study was concerned, high priced, "premium"
FRAM filters (which Fram claims are superior to their standard
filters) are no better than a private branded version of a WIX filter.
Here is FRAM's advertising claims for the X2 fitlers:

"The new FRAM® X2T Extended GuardT has all the single pass efficiency
of a FRAM® Extra Guard® oil filter but with TWICE THE CAPACITY! FRAM®
X2T is the very first premium oil filter to offer an amazing 7,000
miles plus performance! Combined with Triad Technology, the FRAM® X2T
filter also features the new FRAM® X2000 high-synthetic blend (70%)
media. It's thicker and denser for efficiency and extra capacity, and
backed by a rugged, metal screen design that helps achieve uniform
pleating, maintaining optimum oil flow, and greatly extended service."

Net: FRAM's best is no better than a bottom of the barrel Car Quest
filter....

The smallest particles do cause wear just not as much wear or as
fast.
So it is purely a question of how long you intend to make the engine
last. It makes no sense to a new car buyer that doesn't intend to
keep
the car past 100k miles to go to the expense and trouble to do
maintenance with the goal of making the engine last 500k miles.
That is
a complete waste of their time and money. But if someone does happen
to
want to make it last that long then they will need to do something
about
keeping the engine clean. And that means doing something to keep
the
small particles from accumulating.


The procedure to prevent that is called an oil and filter change.

But your analysis is correct. If the filter removes finest particles
efficiently and you have an engine that is loaded up with years of
accumulation of fine particles then yes the filter will be more
likely
to plug up. So yes if you put a higher efficiency filter on an old
dirty engine you should be aware that it could load up sooner than a
filter that is not as efficient at removing the smallest particles.

I have a hard time deciding what the right number is for non-harmful
components. I've read some information that indicates particles
smaller than 10 microns can lead to significant wear and others that
say they are not so harmful. It seems that most filter manufacturers
never rate anything below 10 microns, and mostly they are targeting
the 20 micron size.

HA HA HA. So another fool who thinks all he needs is a hack saw and
he
becomes an expert at oil filter manufacture and design. FYI the end
caps
are trapped inside the filter. The only way they can move even if
there
was no glue holding them is if you cut the filter apart. There is no
place for the end caps to go. Its absolutely ludicrous that you
would
you think the heavy reinforced fiber material on the ends is going
to
be the weak point of filter when every filter on the market have all
this fiber material that is much lighter and not as well supported.
Your
claim that the end caps often come loose is typical of the Fram
bashers
mythology. What exactly is the failure mode for these end caps.
Describe
exactly what happens with these end caps when they come loose. And I
should warn you if you make something up out of thin air its going
sound like an obvious lie, because there is really no failure mode
for
these filters at all that involves the end caps.

Have you ever looked at the insides of a standard FRAM filter. If not,
go to http://home.mindspring.com/~cewhite3nc/id10.html .
There is plenty of room for the top end cap (if you can call a piece
of paper an end cap) to detach and pull away from the filter element.
Compare that to http://home.mindspring.com/~cewhite3nc/id9.html .

The Fram filter cost $3.77, the Motorcraft $3.28 (2006 prices). Which
would you think was better?

Ed

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

Let's revise that. Not only has the clattering gone away, but there has
been a noticable rise in oil pressure, esp at higher revs. Oil pressure
goes much higher than it did before, and does not bottom to 0 on the gauge...

I think when my daughter had her old Nissan, her mechanic put some
shims behind the spring in the oil pressure relief valve and increased
her oil pressure somewhat. Dunno how practical that trick would be for
you - just a thought.

Carl

 

[C. E. White]

I think when my daughter had her old Nissan, her mechanic put some
shims behind the spring in the oil pressure relief valve and
increased
her oil pressure somewhat. Dunno how practical that trick would be
for
you - just a thought.

I can't imagine why this would be useful unless there was a problem
with the oil pressure relief valve.

Ed