Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

[SMS]

If the filter was orange we'd change it first.

USUALLY solved the problem.

Yeah, my brother-in-law has a high volume repair shop in San Francisco
and he gets all the marketing people from the different brands coming to
his shop trying to sell him parts, including filters. He has a strict
rule of "no orange filters" having been burned by them in the past.

The problem is that if a shop does and oil change, and their choice of
oil or filter damages the customer's engine, the shop is liable. If you
use the proper oil and good quality filter then you have a credible
defense. Even when Toyota and Honda dealers were not using the
recommended oil because it wasn't in their bulk tanks, he would buy
cases of the oil in bottles, at significant expense, because he wouldn't
use the 5W30 bulk oil from his tank in a vehicle that called for
something else.

He buys higher quality jobber filters (which are no more expensive than
Fram filters) as well as keeping a stock of Honda and Toyota filters for
the customers that want them (at no extra charge, even though they cost
him $2 more).

It's always amusing to hear the stories of naive repair shop customers
that try to save money by doing stupid things. Like the guy that was
going to fix his over-the-limit emissions himself, then come back for a
free retest. Instead of paying $40 to someone that knew what to do, and
could test that the repair worked before retesting and sending the data
to Sacramento, the customer came back for the retest and had gone from
barely failing, to becoming a gross polluter. Then he was willing to pay
the $40, but it was too late because the smog check machine
automatically sends the test results to the state, and once you're a
gross polluter you have to go to a special smog check station and then
you have to get yearly smog checks instead of every two years for
certain number of years. Saving $40 cost the guy at least $300.

 

[Heron McKeister]

Yeah, my brother-in-law has a high volume repair shop in San Francisco
and he gets all the marketing people from the different brands coming to
his shop trying to sell him parts, including filters. He has a strict
rule of "no orange filters" having been burned by them in the past.

The problem is that if a shop does and oil change, and their choice of
oil or filter damages the customer's engine, the shop is liable. If you
use the proper oil and good quality filter then you have a credible
defense. Even when Toyota and Honda dealers were not using the
recommended oil because it wasn't in their bulk tanks, he would buy
cases of the oil in bottles, at significant expense, because he wouldn't
use the 5W30 bulk oil from his tank in a vehicle that called for
something else.

He buys higher quality jobber filters (which are no more expensive than
Fram filters) as well as keeping a stock of Honda and Toyota filters for
the customers that want them (at no extra charge, even though they cost
him $2 more).

It's always amusing to hear the stories of naive repair shop customers
that try to save money by doing stupid things. Like the guy that was
going to fix his over-the-limit emissions himself, then come back for a
free retest. Instead of paying $40 to someone that knew what to do, and
could test that the repair worked before retesting and sending the data
to Sacramento, the customer came back for the retest and had gone from
barely failing, to becoming a gross polluter. Then he was willing to pay
the $40, but it was too late because the smog check machine
automatically sends the test results to the state, and once you're a
gross polluter you have to go to a special smog check station and then
you have to get yearly smog checks instead of every two years for
certain number of years. Saving $40 cost the guy at least $300.

I know of a guy that knew someone whose relative had
somewhat of a similar situation with ... Ah, each of those
anonymous, apocryphal anecdotes are so very enlightening,
not to mention humorous and entertaining, aren't they?

 

[jim]

Yeah, my brother-in-law has a high volume repair shop in San Francisco
and he gets all the marketing people from the different brands coming to
his shop trying to sell him parts, including filters. He has a strict
rule of "no orange filters" having been burned by them in the past.

Geez don't you guys ever get tired of saying my superstitions is
supported by someone else who is equally superstitious. It is not as if
there aren't plenty of repair shops run by people who aren't
superstitious. How do you think Fram got to be the #1 oil filter
manufacturer?

The problem is that if a shop does and oil change, and their choice of
oil or filter damages the customer's engine, the shop is liable.

No if your fictional scenario would ever become reality it would be oil
filter manufacturer that is liable. You are talking about someone who
does not even allow any one to talk to him about a particular oil filter
brand. He is just plain superstitious.

If you
use the proper oil and good quality filter then you have a credible
defense. Even when Toyota and Honda dealers were not using the
recommended oil because it wasn't in their bulk tanks, he would buy
cases of the oil in bottles, at significant expense, because he wouldn't
use the 5W30 bulk oil from his tank in a vehicle that called for
something else.

He buys higher quality jobber filters (which are no more expensive than
Fram filters) as well as keeping a stock of Honda and Toyota filters for
the customers that want them (at no extra charge, even though they cost
him $2 more).

Honda filters are made by Fram.

It's always amusing to hear the stories of naive repair shop customers
that try to save money by doing stupid things. Like the guy that was
going to fix his over-the-limit emissions himself, then come back for a
free retest. Instead of paying $40 to someone that knew what to do, and
could test that the repair worked before retesting and sending the data
to Sacramento, the customer came back for the retest and had gone from
barely failing, to becoming a gross polluter. Then he was willing to pay
the $40, but it was too late because the smog check machine
automatically sends the test results to the state, and once you're a
gross polluter you have to go to a special smog check station and then
you have to get yearly smog checks instead of every two years for
certain number of years. Saving $40 cost the guy at least $300.

And this proves that you can throw just about any irrelevant fact into
the discussion???

-jim

 

[jim]

Odd then that both the Fram and Wix applications for that engine list
an integral ADBV. I don't remember the Fram no. but the Wix no. is
51515. look it up.

That is not odd . The filter is used on other engines also. Probably at
the time the slant six was introduced it was the only filter chrysler
used.

-jim

 

[N8N]

Geez don't you guys ever get tired of saying my superstitions is
supported by someone else who is equally superstitious. It is not as if
there aren't plenty of repair shops run by people who aren't
superstitious. How do you think Fram got to be the #1 oil filter
manufacturer?

Advertising. Lots and lots of advertising.

When was the last time you saw an ad for Wix filters? And yet they
seem to be selling quite well.

nate

 

[clare]

Odd then that both the Fram and Wix applications for that engine list
an integral ADBV. I don't remember the Fram no. but the Wix no. is
51515. look it up.

nate

The early slant six (long filter) was PH8A. The short one was was
PH43. BOTH have antidrainback valves according to their spec. Fram
USED to make a PH8, which I believe was the same as the PH8A but
without the antidrainback. Don't think it's been made since the 8A
came out back in the early sixties.
And I've had a lot of Slant 6 engines apart and cannot recall EVER
seeing a backflow prevention device in the filter standpipe.

And just think about it for a moment. The oil comes in the OUTSIDE of
the filter, through the ring of holes around the base. The drainback
valve covers THOSE holes to keep oil from running back out of the
filter. The standpipe goes in the CENTER of the filter, which is the
OUT LET of the filter. How could a backflow prevention valve work in
the standpipe?
CAN'T - That's how. There is no backflow prevention valve on a slant
six engine. PERIOD. It REQUIRES the backflow valve equipped oil filter
to prevent the oil from draining out to the pan on every shut-down.
If the backflow valve fails it takes several seconds of running to
develop oil pressure - and on a cold day after a hot shut-down, it can
be well over 10 seconds.

I've owned and driven the crap out of several slant sixes in my
lifetime, and the rest of the family had quite a few more, which I
serviced at least part of their lives.(except for my kid brother's ,
which he looked after because by then he was also a mechanic)
Several of them went over 200,000 miles.
All of them but one at one time or another had drainback / dry restart
issues.

My last slant six was the '74 Dart Sport - and by that time I had
given up on using fram filters. Cannot remember it ever having the
"delayed oil light" problem except when the oil pressure switch leaked
- and then it would come on even on the road (when you came to an
idle) as well as taking time to go off on startup.

 

[clare]

Your not keeping up with the folklore. Most of the Fram bashers I have
read say that Fram made good filters back then. According to all the
folklore I have read on the internet it was only after the companies
ownership changed in the 90's that the filter became cheap and
unreliable. Before that according to most folklorists they were good
filters.

You missed the point of the post you were responding to for the second
time.




But all of this is ancient history and not particularly useful to most
people today. It may interest you to know that in the period from 1950's
to the 90's almost every multigrade dino oil on the market gave
inadequate protection if the engine oil temp exceeded 240F. That means
if your engine overheated you were basically screwed. And the affect of
heat on the oil was not temporary in most cases it was permanent. that
means if you didn't change the oil immediately following the overheating
incident you were doubly screwed. The fact that you have horror stories
that revolve around engine lubrication problems from 30 years ago is not
at all surprising. But what does this ancient history have to do with
today?


OK so you have been superstitious for a long time. I have never seen a
filter of any type cause problems in a clean engine. I've never seen a
dirty engine that wasn't in a death spiral. The fact that you were very
good at treating the symptoms and ignoring the root causes of problems
is not very impressive.

Jim, you don't know me. You don't know my history and reputation as a
mechanic and troubleshooter.

I FIXED problems. I had a lot of other shops and mechanics that would
call me up to figure out how to fix problems they could not solve.

Kid brother the same - and he's still wrenching and he's over 50. I
quit actively wrenching for health reasons some years back.

I still get calls to figure out what is wrong, particularly on older
vehicles that young mechanics have never seen before, but also for
electronic and electrical problems.

That's because you are superstitious. You see and remember what you
want to see and remember don't see and remember what you don't want to
see and remember. Take the guy with the motocraft filter that had
missing threads. That story till now was mostly forgotten. Had that been
a story about a Fram filter, you would by now be able to google and find
that story on 50 web pages. All I see is evidence that you are not the
only one. There more than just you that predisposed to selectively
remembering things.

I am not superstitious.

Yes and this means what? Again all i see is someone who is only
interested in symptoms not root causes. Foe example, take the case of
an engine with hydraulic lifters. If the engine and oil is kept clean
then the check valve in each valve lifter should keep the lifter filled
while the oil is being changed. In a properly working engine you really
shouldn't be getting valve clatter when you start the engine after the
oil change. It is only in dirty and/or worn engines that lifters will
bleed down wile you are doing an oil change.

It's not valve lifters as much as chain tensioners that rattle on
startup if oil pressure comes up in a reasonable time. 10 seconds of
running with no oil pressure WILL make hydraulic lifters clatter - but
the Toyota engines I spoke of did NOT have hydraulic lifters.

Well that is mostly just superstition. There are plenty of engines that
use cheap oil and filter and they get changed and started up after the
oil change without any special procedure and the engine ends up lasting
longer than the rest of the car. There is no evidence that your
precautions would make any difference to the life of the engine.

-jim

Jim,

You OBVIOUSLY do not know what you are talking about.
Bet you are not a mechanic either.

Mabee a parts changer, at best.

 

[SMS]

Heron McKeister wrote:

I know of a guy that knew someone whose relative had
somewhat of a similar situation with ... Ah, each of those
anonymous, apocryphal anecdotes are so very enlightening,
not to mention humorous and entertaining, aren't they?

Especially because they are true!

 

[SMS]

Advertising. Lots and lots of advertising.

When was the last time you saw an ad for Wix filters? And yet they
seem to be selling quite well.

Fram may be the #1 selling after-market retail filter, but it'd be very
rare to find a repair shop using them. Most repair shops use jobber
filters or OEM filters. The jobber filters have names that you wouldn't
recognize.

 

[Daniel Who Wants to Know]

(e-mail address removed)...

Odd then that both the Fram and Wix applications for that
engine list

an integral ADBV. I don't remember the Fram no. but the
Wix no. is

51515. look it up.

nate

The fram number is PH8A
smallest to largest PH8-PH16-PH8A
PH16 is also Wix 51085 IIRC

 

[C. E. White]

You change the filter yourself?
How's the filter set on the 5.4? Horizontal, or somewhat bottom down?
Do you fill the new filter with oil?
If so, how much is retained while putting the filter on?
Do you get the clatter on the start up after an oil change?
Think about it.
You should. Every time.
Unless that clatter had absolutely nothing to do with the filter.

On that particular 5.4 the filter was remotely mounted behind the front
bumper and horizontal. I never had the problem when changing oil, but then I
never changed oil when the vehicle was stone cold and the outside
temperature was 10 degrees. Cold oil is more viscous, and therefore it takes
longer build pressure. Also, when I change the oil, I doubt the oil pump has
any problem losing prime. Not so sure about the situation when the oil leaks
back through the anti-drain back valve overnight.

Maybe it was not the anti-drain back valve, but the Ford mechanic emphasized
the need to use an FL-820S Filter on the engine instead of the older FL820
or any other filter that did not use a silicone anti-drain back valve. The
only noticeable difference between a FL820 and FL820S filter is the
anti-drain back valve material (the "s" uses a silicone anti-drain back
valve instead of nitrile).

And finally, I never had the problem when using an FL820S oil filter (more
than 120,000 miles after the time I had the noise). I certainly can't say
for sure the oil filter was the casue of the concern, but it seems Ford when
to a lot of trouble to update the FL820 filter to include a better
anti-drain back valve. I can't imagine Ford spending an extra penny for
something that was not beneficial.

Ed

 

[jim]

Jim, you don't know me. You don't know my history and reputation as a
mechanic and troubleshooter.

I don't claim to know you. But ain't hard to figure you out.

First you say it doesn't have a valve.

Then you say some of them had a valve.

Then you say they don't have a valve.

Then you say you can't figure out how the valve would work.

What more do I need to know?

 

[jim]

On that particular 5.4 the filter was remotely mounted behind the front
bumper and horizontal. I never had the problem when changing oil, but then I
never changed oil when the vehicle was stone cold and the outside
temperature was 10 degrees. Cold oil is more viscous, and therefore it takes
longer build pressure.

Where did you acquire that myth. Assuming you don't have some not
approved oil with a high pour point in your engine the oil pressure
should start to rise as soon as you start cranking the engine. And the
colder it is the faster it will rise. When it is really cold out the oil
pressure will often reach normal levels before the engine even is
running. Oil is not compressible. So unless you have air in the system
between the pump and pressure sending unit the pressure signal from pump
to oil pressure sensor should be pretty much instantaneous. It sounds
like you have a problem no matter what filter you use, but Ford has
somehow convinced you you are magically protected if you use their
filter.

Also, when I change the oil, I doubt the oil pump has
any problem losing prime. Not so sure about the situation when the oil leaks
back through the anti-drain back valve overnight.

Maybe it was not the anti-drain back valve, but the Ford mechanic emphasized
the need to use an FL-820S Filter on the engine instead of the older FL820
or any other filter that did not use a silicone anti-drain back valve. The
only noticeable difference between a FL820 and FL820S filter is the
anti-drain back valve material (the "s" uses a silicone anti-drain back
valve instead of nitrile).

And finally, I never had the problem when using an FL820S oil filter (more
than 120,000 miles after the time I had the noise). I certainly can't say
for sure the oil filter was the casue of the concern, but it seems Ford when
to a lot of trouble to update the FL820 filter to include a better
anti-drain back valve. I can't imagine Ford spending an extra penny for
something that was not beneficial.

You need to really start looking at something other than hobgoblins as
an explanation for how things work. If Ford can spend an extra penny per
filter to convince you to not look for the defect in their engine and
instead make you believe you are magically protected then yes it is
money well spent from their point of view.

Here is my experience with the Chrysler slant six engine: In the early
70's I worked at a place where we had 3 dodge vans with slant six
engines. In the 3 years I worked there never had a problem with any of
these engines except one - when it got down to -25F they would often
need to be jump started to get them going. I talked to a friend of mine
who worked as a fleet mechanic. He had experience with lots of these
engines (and yes they used Fram filters where he worked also).
He said the trick to starting these engines when its really cold is to
crank the engine until the oil light goes out. That usually takes about
2 seconds when it is really cold. When the oil light goes out stop
cranking and sit and wait until the oil light comes back on. then wait
a few more seconds and then repeat the procedure. At the second or 3rd
attempt the engine should start.
Well I tried it and by-golly it worked. Never had to jump one those
engines again even when the thermometer went down to -32F. And these
engines all had Fram filters


So excuse me if I don't believe the internet folklore about these
engines failing to build oil pressure. I know from personal experience
that never happened with a properly functioning engine. I don't care
how many times somebody has had tear down an engine apart for oil
related failures. That doesn't tell me that a bogeyman caused the
problem that made those engines fail. What it tells me is those were
badly maintained malfunctioning engines. The slant six was one of the
most bullet proof engines Detroit ever built. When they were properly
and well maintained there would never be any good reason to dig any
deeper into these engines than removing the valve covers.

-jim

 

[N8N]

I don't claim to know you. But ain't hard to figure you out.

First you say it doesn't have a valve.

Then you say some of them had a valve.

Then you say they don't have a valve.

Then you say you can't figure out how the valve would work.

What more do I need to know?

That he's absolutely correct?

I can't say that I've read every post in this thread, but I *can* say
that the post to which you're responding is factual.

Most full flow spin-on type oil filters are in fact arranged so that
the oil flows in around the perimeter and out the center hole.
Therefore even if there is some kind of check valve in the standpipe,
there really ought to be one on the inlet as well. This is obviously
provided as a part of the filter. And has been pointed out to you
several times before, it's well known that if you have a slant six
that rod-knocks on startup and keeps the oil pressure light on for an
unreasonably long time after a cold start, this is almost always
rectified by replacing the Fram filter with a Wix filter. So *even
if* whatever valve you say may or may not be included in the standpipe
is actually present, and *even if* on every slant six I've had, that
valve was defective for some reason, there *still* is an ADBV included
in the aftermarket oil filters available for that engine - and the
ones in Frams don't work, and the ones in Wix filters *do.* (note:
I've never personally removed the standpipe on a slant six, and I
haven't owned/driven/been near one for something like ten years now,
so I can't say whether that part of your post is factual or not.)
There's a perfectly good reason for this; Wix filters use a silicone
ADBV while Frams usually have nitrile ones, above and beyond the
construction issues with Frams that make it more difficult for even a
soft, pliable ADBV to make a perfect seal against its mating surface.

Before you accuse me yet again of driving "defective" machinery, the
two cars on which I've observed this personally both had engines in
excellent mechanical condition; one was a reasonably fresh reman
engine, and the other was a little old lady car with 80K original
miles. Years later I had the head off the little old lady car (due to
the owner of said car going too long between valve adjustments) and
found the bores to still be in good shape, with little sludge/residue
evident on the top side of the head.

Face it, you're BSing, and everyone's calling you on it. Just give
up.

nate

 

[jim]

That he's absolutely correct?

About what?

I can't say that I've read every post in this thread, but I *can* say
that the post to which you're responding is factual.

Who said it wasn't. His interpretation of the facts are what has been
questioned.

Most full flow spin-on type oil filters are in fact arranged so that
the oil flows in around the perimeter and out the center hole.

All of them are as far as I know.

Therefore even if there is some kind of check valve in the standpipe,
there really ought to be one on the inlet as well.

Why because that supposition supports your fictitious and superstitious
beliefs?

If no air can be drawn into the filter from the outlet side, then no air can
get into the filter or any of the plumbing from the stand pipe to oil pick up in
the sump. No air anywhere in the system from filter to sump means no oil
pressure problem that you guys were having. The symptoms you describe are either
due to air in the system where there isn't supposed to be air or a blockage in
the system such as the anti-syphon valve in the engine sticking. That was a
problem that Chrysler reported happened in some engines. There are at least a
half dozen different ways that air could be getting in the system. For instance,
there are a bunch of gaskets between the oil filter and sump that could leak and
allow air into the system. And some of the others ways have already been
discussed.

This is obviously
provided as a part of the filter. And has been pointed out to you
several times before, it's well known that if you have a slant six
that rod-knocks on startup and keeps the oil pressure light on for an
unreasonably long time after a cold start, this is almost always
rectified by replacing the Fram filter with a Wix filter.

Bah humbug. And I suppose you believe in Santa Clause?

So *even
if* whatever valve you say may or may not be included in the standpipe
is actually present, and *even if* on every slant six I've had, that
valve was defective for some reason, there *still* is an ADBV included
in the aftermarket oil filters available for that engine - and the
ones in Frams don't work, and the ones in Wix filters *do.*

That statement is false.


(note:

I've never personally removed the standpipe on a slant six, and I
haven't owned/driven/been near one for something like ten years now,
so I can't say whether that part of your post is factual or not.)
There's a perfectly good reason for this; Wix filters use a silicone
ADBV while Frams usually have nitrile ones,

That may be a fact but you have no evidence it is relevant to your claims. All
these filters are ISO tested including the ADBV. Where is the evidence from
those test that the material makes any difference? Someone who chooses to ignore
the test evidence and instead rely on idiots who have only eyeballed the guts of
a filter is superstitious IMO.

above and beyond the
construction issues with Frams that make it more difficult for even a
soft, pliable ADBV to make a perfect seal against its mating surface.

Even when it was -32F the rubber in the Fram filters did not fail. I know they
don't fail on engines that are working as designed. I know others had the same
experience as I had. That means I have believable evidence 1000's of these
filters were known to never fail a single time. You want me to believe that your
experience with a couple filters where you think they failed is going to be more
convincing then my experience. It is just not very likely that you got all the
bad filters and I others I know got only good ones. A person would have to be
superstitious to believe that.

Before you accuse me yet again of driving "defective" machinery, the
two cars on which I've observed this personally both had engines in
excellent mechanical condition;

No you didn't. You had an oil pressure problem and a rod knock which you said
persisted even with the WIX (only not as bad). You described the problem
clearly enough. It is your interpretation of the cause that is lacking.

one was a reasonably fresh reman
engine, and the other was a little old lady car with 80K original
miles. Years later I had the head off the little old lady car (due to
the owner of said car going too long between valve adjustments) and
found the bores to still be in good shape, with little sludge/residue
evident on the top side of the head.

Face it, you're BSing, and everyone's calling you on it. Just give

No body has called me on anything. You have superstitious beliefs about what you
think is going on in places inside the engine you can't see. These engines when
working properly do not have low oil pressure problem you say they are prone
to. You even admitted the WIX filter didn't completely fix the problem but just
improved the symptoms. I don't doubt that, but that isn't evidence of a bad
filter it is evidence of a problem with the engine that was misdiagnosed.

-jim

 

[C. E. White]

There's a perfectly good reason for this; Wix filters use a silicone
ADBV while Frams usually have nitrile ones, above and beyond the
construction issues with Frams that make it more difficult for even
a
soft, pliable ADBV to make a perfect seal against its mating
surface.

Wix doesn't calim to use a silicone anti-drain back valve on all
filters. The Wix advertising copy that shows a silicone anti-drain
abck valve also includes a disclaimer that says "Some filters may or
may not have these specific features due to OE requirements or other
manufacturing processes. Refer to individual part numbers for specific
details." Unfortunately the individual details available from the Wix
website does nto include this information.

And Fram does offer filters with silicone anti-drain back valves, you
just pay more to get them (the Tough Guard product line).

Ed

 

[N8N]

About what?




Who said it wasn't. His interpretation of the facts are what has been
questioned.

Not by me.

All of them are as far as I know.


Why because that supposition supports your fictitious and  superstitious
beliefs?

Go easy on the insults there, buddy, especially when it's your
credibility that is razor thin.

        If no air can be drawn into the filter from the outlet side, then no air can
get into the filter or any of the plumbing from the stand pipe to oil pick up in
the sump. No air anywhere in the system from filter to sump means no oil
pressure problem that you guys were having. The symptoms you describe areeither
due to air in the system where there isn't supposed to be air or a blockage in
the system such as the anti-syphon valve in the engine sticking. That wasa
problem that Chrysler reported happened in some engines.  There are at least a
half dozen different ways that air could be getting in the system. For instance,
there are a bunch of gaskets between the oil filter and sump that could leak and
allow air into the system. And some of the others ways have already been
discussed.

Or if the column of oil is high enough, air bubbles could even come up
through the oil pump - what I suspect was actually happening.
Assuming that there is even a valve in the engine.

Bah humbug. And I suppose you believe in Santa Clause?

I don't know who or what "Santa Clause" is unless you're referring to
the Tim Allen movie.

That statement is false.

Prove it.

 (note:


That may be a fact but you have no evidence it is relevant to your claims.. All
these filters are ISO tested including the ADBV.

So why don't they work?

Where is the evidence from
those test that the material makes any difference?

It's common knowledge that nitrile gets hard in service much sooner
than silicone. That may or may not show up in the testing procedure,
but it sure shows up out in the real world. You know, where people
actually drive their cars.

Someone who chooses to ignore
the test evidence and instead rely on idiots who have only eyeballed the guts of
a filter is superstitious IMO.

Someone who parrots "meets manufacturers specifications" without
actually showing that a product does so and ignores real world results
is a fuckwitted idiot.

Even when it was -32F the rubber in the Fram filters did not fail.

Mine did.

I know they
don't fail on engines that are working as designed.

You "know" this? How?

I know others had the same
experience as I had. That means I have believable evidence  1000's of these
filters were known to never fail a single time. You want me to believe that your
experience with a couple filters where you think they failed is going to be more
convincing then my experience.  It is just not very likely that you gotall the
bad filters and I others I know got only good ones. A person would have to be
superstitious to believe that.

A person would have to be "superstitious" to believe that there is
absolutely nothing to a whole mess of reports of failures just because
he himself has never experienced one. I've never blown a rod out the
side of a block, either, and I don't need to to know that that is one
possible result of running without oil.

No you didn't. You had an oil pressure problem and a rod knock which you said
persisted even with the WIX (only not as bad).

I most certainly did *not* say that.

 You described the problem
clearly enough. It is your interpretation of the cause that is lacking.
Riiiiiiight.



No body has called me on anything. You have superstitious beliefs about what you
think is going on in places inside the engine you can't see. These engines when
working properly do not have low oil pressure problem you say they are prone
to.

I never said that they were prone to low oil pressure. I said that
when used with inferior oil filters with faulty ADBVs that they would
have a *no* oil pressure condition on a cold start. 100% factual
statement, and true for *any* engine with an upside-down filter and no
ADBV built into the filter mount.

 You even admitted the WIX filter didn't completely fix the problem butjust
improved the symptoms.

Nope. It fixed the problem.

I don't doubt that, but that isn't evidence of a bad
filter it is evidence of a problem with the engine that was misdiagnosed.

I fail to see how completely rectifying the problem implies
misdiagnosis.

nate

 

[jim]

Not by me.

Yeah and that proves what. Is it your position that if two or more people share
the same belief it then becomes fact?

Go easy on the insults there, buddy, especially when it's your
credibility that is razor thin.


Or if the column of oil is high enough, air bubbles could even come up
through the oil pump - what I suspect was actually happening.
Assuming that there is even a valve in the engine.

The column of oil high enough? you mean like if it was 50 feet high? There is no
way air can get in from the pick up side of the oil pump unless the oil in the
pan is extremely low. Your "air bubbles could even come up through the oil pump"
is just another work of fiction.

I don't know who or what "Santa Clause" is unless you're referring to
the Tim Allen movie.


Prove it.

I don't have to. The Society of Automotive Engineers and the International
Organization for Standardization has overseen the testing that supports my
position. There are both SAE and ISO standards for these things and numerous
tests to verify that standards are being met. There is probably more testing
done on oil filters than on the food you eat. If you think there are flaws in
those test procedures you prove it. I have experience working for a small
company that makes the housings that oil filters are fastened to. From what they
have told me I know that after market oil filters are tested to death. There is
no evidence at all from all the extensive testing to support your claims.

So why don't they work?


It's common knowledge that nitrile gets hard in service much sooner
than silicone. That may or may not show up in the testing procedure,
but it sure shows up out in the real world. You know, where people
actually drive their cars.

Yeah like no engineer ever thought of what would happen in the real world? Do
you think you are the first to think of that. You think no testing has ever been
done using real world conditions?

Someone who parrots "meets manufacturers specifications" without
actually showing that a product does so and ignores real world results
is a fuckwitted idiot.

That is the evidence that exists. You either rely on that evidence or like you
you rely on speculation.

Mine did.


You "know" this? How?

I know for a fact that when cold a properly working slant six will not start up
without oil pressure. It is designed not to do that, and in my experience with
latterly hundreds of cold starts I am convinced that the design is extremely
reliable.

A person would have to be "superstitious" to believe that there is
absolutely nothing to a whole mess of reports of failures just because
he himself has never experienced one. I've never blown a rod out the
side of a block, either, and I don't need to to know that that is one
possible result of running without oil.

And I have observed that when people are trying to promote myths they often
resort to horror stories about poorly understood events.

I most certainly did *not* say that.


I never said that they were prone to low oil pressure. I said that
when used with inferior oil filters with faulty ADBVs that they would
have a *no* oil pressure condition on a cold start. 100% factual
statement, and true for *any* engine with an upside-down filter and no
ADBV built into the filter mount.


Nope. It fixed the problem.


I fail to see how completely rectifying the problem implies
misdiagnosis.

You said you changed the oil and the low oil pressure problem at start up went
away. If the engine was working properly those symptoms never would have been
there in the first place (the engine itself is designed to prevent that without
any help from the filter). And then you said even after your so-called "fixing"
the problem the engine still had a slight knock on start up. Typically on these
engines when working properly the oil pressure light would go off before the
engine began firing and would never exhibit symptoms of low oil pressure at
startup no matter what filter was on it.

-jim

 

[N8N]

Yeah and that proves what. Is it your position that if two or more peopleshare
the same belief it then becomes fact?










The column of oil high enough? you mean like if it was 50 feet high? There is no
way air can get in from the pick up side of the oil pump unless the oil in the
pan is extremely low. Your "air bubbles could even come up through the oil pump"
is just another work of fiction.










I don't have to. The Society of Automotive Engineers and the International
Organization for Standardization has overseen the testing that supports  my
position. There are both SAE and ISO standards for these things and numerous
tests to verify that standards are being met. There is probably more testing
done on oil filters than on the food you eat.  If you think there are flaws in
those test procedures you prove it. I have experience working for a small
company that makes the housings that oil filters are fastened to. From what they
have told me I know that after market oil filters are tested to death. There is
no evidence at all from all the extensive testing to support your claims.










Yeah like no engineer ever thought of what would happen in the real world? Do
you think you are the first to think of that. You think no testing has ever been
done using real world conditions?





That is the evidence that exists. You either rely on  that evidence or like you
you rely on speculation.






I know for a fact that when cold a properly working slant six will not start up
without oil pressure. It is designed not to do that, and in  my experience with
latterly hundreds of cold starts I am convinced that the design is extremely
reliable.





And I have observed that when people are trying to promote myths they often
resort to horror stories about poorly understood events.












You said you changed the oil and the low oil pressure problem at start upwent
away. If the engine was working properly those symptoms never would have been
there  in the first place (the engine itself is designed to prevent that without
any help from the filter). And then you said even after your so-called "fixing"
the problem the engine still had a slight knock on start up. Typically onthese
engines when working properly the oil pressure light would go off before the
engine began firing and would never exhibit symptoms of low oil pressure at
startup no matter what filter was on it.  

-jim-

You're an idiot. No use wasting any more electrons on you. Go ahead
and use your shitty orange cans, I don't care. I just hope you're not
a real mechanic and never do any work on any of my cars. I'd like to
say that that's impossible, but I *have* seen some really incompetent
"mechanics" out there.

nate

 

[jim]

You're an idiot. No use wasting any more electrons on you.

I suppose you believe in order for me to become not an idiot I would
need to have an engine with low oil pressure and spread folklore tales
on the internet about how my engine got to be like that? I guess in your
mind, everyone who is not having that experience is obviously
demonstrating idiocy.

Go ahead
and use your shitty orange cans, I don't care. I just hope you're not
a real mechanic and never do any work on any of my cars. I'd like to
say that that's impossible, but I *have* seen some really incompetent
"mechanics" out there.

It's not hard to see why you would be concerned about finding a good
mechanic. With your superstitions it would be just as hard for you to
determine if a mechanic was competent to fix your problems as it would
for you to figure out what is wrong yourself.


-jim