Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

[Heron McKeister]

Yeah and that proves what. Is it your position that if two or more people share
the same belief it then becomes fact?










The column of oil high enough? you mean like if it was 50 feet high? There is no
way air can get in from the pick up side of the oil pump unless the oil in the
pan is extremely low. Your "air bubbles could even come up through the oil pump"
is just another work of fiction.










I don't have to. The Society of Automotive Engineers and the International
Organization for Standardization has overseen the testing that supports my
position. There are both SAE and ISO standards for these things and numerous
tests to verify that standards are being met. There is probably more testing
done on oil filters than on the food you eat. If you think there are flaws in
those test procedures you prove it. I have experience working for a small
company that makes the housings that oil filters are fastened to. From what they
have told me I know that after market oil filters are tested to death. There is
no evidence at all from all the extensive testing to support your claims.










Yeah like no engineer ever thought of what would happen in the real world? Do
you think you are the first to think of that. You think no testing has ever been
done using real world conditions?





That is the evidence that exists. You either rely on that evidence or like you
you rely on speculation.


surface.



I know for a fact that when cold a properly working slant six will not start up
without oil pressure. It is designed not to do that, and in my experience with
latterly hundreds of cold starts I am convinced that the design is extremely


And I have observed that when people are trying to promote myths they often
resort to horror stories about poorly understood events.







lacking.

misdiagnosed.

You said you changed the oil and the low oil pressure problem at start up went
away. If the engine was working properly those symptoms never would have been
there in the first place (the engine itself is designed to prevent that without
any help from the filter). And then you said even after your so-called "fixing"
the problem the engine still had a slight knock on start up. Typically on these
engines when working properly the oil pressure light would go off before the
engine began firing and would never exhibit symptoms of low oil pressure at
startup no matter what filter was on it.

-jim-

You're an idiot. No use wasting any more electrons on you. Go ahead
and use your shitty orange cans, I don't care. I just hope you're not
a real mechanic and never do any work on any of my cars. I'd like to
say that that's impossible, but I *have* seen some really incompetent
"mechanics" out there.

nate
***************************************************

That same one who continually occupies your mirror?

 

[hls]

LOL, YOU'RE the one changing the oil far more often than every expert
mechanic, and every vehicle manufacturer says is necessary for maximum
engine life. It's you that has to provide the proof that there's an
advantage, not everyone else that has to disprove it.

Every vehicle manufacturer DOESNT say that, and an expert mechanic would
have no expertise to allow him to make that statement with any authority.

On my cars, the book says to change them at 5000 miles, but the dealerships
have all told me to go 3500-4000. I wouldnt feel too bad about extending
to
5000 miles if I had to, but oil changes are cheap, and I document every one
of
them with receipts, etc.

And I still dont consider it throwing money away. Using Mobil 1 and
changing
every 3500-5000 would be throwing money away.

 

[hls]

You are wasting a ton of money and oil. With today's high quality
regular oil, unless you have some crappy sludge producing import
engine, every 6mo/6000 miles is all you need.

Depends on your goals. If you want the minimum upkeep, and you
run the vehicles a relatively short time, and then just want to auction them
off, you are probably right.

If you want to maintain your warranty and run the car for 8-10 years and
100K or more, then you do what the manufacturer says, or better.

At least, that seems logical to me.

Oil is damn cheap compared to an engine.

 

[hls]

You need to look at the big picture, and what causes engine failures. Lack
of lubrication at start-up is a big factor in an engine not lasting
several hundred thousand miles, and the anti-drainback valve is a key
factor.

The damage done at startup is not due to lack of lubrication. I researched
this and posted the links to the reports some time ago. This "fact" is
often
quoted but just isnt what it seems to be.

 

[Ashton Crusher]

Depends on your goals. If you want the minimum upkeep, and you
run the vehicles a relatively short time, and then just want to auction them
off, you are probably right.

We keep them a long time. There simply is no meaningful benefit to
changing the oil more often the 6/6000 except in VERY unusual
situations. There is NO ONE who in the past 20 years has documented
any benefit to what you are doing and I'd be shocked if you could find
a professionally managed fleet that uses 3/3000 intervals.

If you want to maintain your warranty and run the car for 8-10 years and
100K or more, then you do what the manufacturer says, or better.

And for the most part they all say around 6/6000. Some claim you need
it more often for taxi service but Consumer reports proved that is not
needed.

At least, that seems logical to me.

Oil is damn cheap compared to an engine.

You can spend your own money any way you want but there is no factual
basis for your claim that such frequent oil changes are any benefit.
You are still living in the world of 1960 oil.

 

[dr_jeff]

We keep them a long time. There simply is no meaningful benefit to
changing the oil more often the 6/6000 except in VERY unusual
situations. There is NO ONE who in the past 20 years has documented
any benefit to what you are doing and I'd be shocked if you could find
a professionally managed fleet that uses 3/3000 intervals.

USPS does for many of their vehicles. Of course, they beat the crap out
of them. There are other exceptions, I am sure, of what you say above.

But, for the most part, you are correct.

And for the most part they all say around 6/6000. Some claim you need
it more often for taxi service but Consumer reports proved that is not
needed.

I hate to be picky, but what Consumer Reports says about taxis is not
relevant to most people.

You can spend your own money any way you want but there is no factual
basis for your claim that such frequent oil changes are any benefit.
You are still living in the world of 1960 oil.

For some vehicles, besides postal vehicles, need more frequent changes.
But for the vast majority of the cars people in Europe and North
American drive, 6/6000 is enough.

Jeff

 

[C. E. White]

The damage done at startup is not due to lack of lubrication. I
researched
this and posted the links to the reports some time ago. This "fact" is
often
quoted but just isnt what it seems to be.

I can't find the old post. Can you repost the links?

Ed

 

[C. E. White]

Where did you acquire that myth. Assuming you don't have some not
approved oil with a high pour point in your engine the oil pressure
should start to rise as soon as you start cranking the engine. And the
colder it is the faster it will rise. When it is really cold out the oil
pressure will often reach normal levels before the engine even is
running. Oil is not compressible. So unless you have air in the system
between the pump and pressure sending unit the pressure signal from pump
to oil pressure sensor should be pretty much instantaneous. It sounds
like you have a problem no matter what filter you use, but Ford has
somehow convinced you you are magically protected if you use their
filter.

<sigh> You really don't understand viscosity, pressue and flow do you.

Ed

 

[Vic Smith]

And for the most part they all say around 6/6000. Some claim you need
it more often for taxi service but Consumer reports proved that is not
needed.

My 1997 Lumina owners manual has 2 schedules for oil change.
Short Trip/City - 3000 miles or 3 months, whichever comes first.
Long Trip/Highway - 7500 miles or 12 months, whichever comes first.
What that means is beyond me.
Let's say I change the oil, drive 1500 highway miles to my vacation
city, drive 500 miles in that city, come home 1500 miles on the
highway, and then do the typical city commuting again.
When do I change the oil?
Stupid to try to make sense of that. Easier to just change the oil
every 3000, or 5000, or 7500. Pick your own number.
That CR test on taxis was full of flaws, the obvious one being that
taxis often run all day without being shut down.
Anyway, nobody knows the real difference of changing at 3000 versus
5000.
NOBODY.
So do what makes you feel good.

--Vic

 

[SMS]

My 1997 Lumina owners manual has 2 schedules for oil change.
Short Trip/City - 3000 miles or 3 months, whichever comes first.
Long Trip/Highway - 7500 miles or 12 months, whichever comes first.
What that means is beyond me.

If the vehicle is used solely for short trips, more frequent changes are
needed because the moisture that builds up in the oil is never
vaporized. You might see some seniors in Florida that just drive from
their condo to the supermarket or shopping center in this category, but
not a lot of people fall into this category.

The places like Jiffy Lube has valiantly tried to claim that nearly
every vehicle is in "severe service" because nearly every vehicle is
used for short trips on occasion.

Scientific American got it right:

"According to the automotive website Edmunds.com, the answer depends
more on driving patterns than anything else. Those who rarely drive more
than 10 miles at a time (which doesn’t get the oil hot enough to boil
off moisture condensation) or who start their car frequently when the
oil isn’t hot (when most engine wear occurs) should change their oil
more often—at least twice a year, even if that’s every 1,000 miles,
according to Edmunds. But commuters who drive more than 20 miles a day
on mostly flat freeway can go as far as their owner’s manual recommends,
if not longer, between changes. As a car ages, more frequent changes
might be in order, but that’s for a qualified mechanic to decide on a
case-by-case basis.

“The necessity of 3,000 mile oil changes is a myth that has been handed
down for decades,” writes Austin Davis, proprietor of the website
TrustMyMechanic.com. He says that the economics of the oil change
industry demand pushing customers to get their oil changed more
frequently—purportedly as “cheap insurance” against problems cropping
up—whether they need it or not. One of the largest oil change chains,
Jiffy Lube, for instance, is owned by Pennzoil-Quaker State, and as such
has an incentive to sell as much of the company’s traditional
petroleum-based oil as possible."


The bottom line is that 3000 mile oil changes are nearly always a
complete waste of money. They do not extend the life of the engine one
iota. Taking the myth to even greater levels of absurdity, why not
change it every 1000 miles or 500 miles. After all it's "cheap
insurance" so you should buy as much cheap insurance as you can.

 

[dr_jeff]

If the vehicle is used solely for short trips, more frequent changes are
needed because the moisture that builds up in the oil is never
vaporized. You might see some seniors in Florida that just drive from
their condo to the supermarket or shopping center in this category, but
not a lot of people fall into this category.

The places like Jiffy Lube has valiantly tried to claim that nearly
every vehicle is in "severe service" because nearly every vehicle is
used for short trips on occasion.

Wrong. They tried to make the claim so that they can sell more oil and
filters and make more money that way, as well as try peddle other
services that are either unneeded or needed far less frequently than
Jiffy Lube recommends, like transmission flushes and other ripoffs.

 

[Vic Smith]

If the vehicle is used solely for short trips, more frequent changes are
needed because the moisture that builds up in the oil is never
vaporized. You might see some seniors in Florida that just drive from
their condo to the supermarket or shopping center in this category, but
not a lot of people fall into this category.

I know all that, but that's not what the manual says. It says exactly
as I stated.

The places like Jiffy Lube has valiantly tried to claim that nearly
every vehicle is in "severe service" because nearly every vehicle is
used for short trips on occasion.

Scientific American got it right:

What, by quoting some Joe Blow at Edmunds? Hardly "Scientific."

"According to the automotive website Edmunds.com, the answer depends
more on driving patterns than anything else. Those who rarely drive more
than 10 miles at a time (which doesn’t get the oil hot enough to boil
off moisture condensation)

They don't even have that right. My car gets to operating temp in no
more than 3 miles, even when it's -0 F outside.
Beside that, many use their car for long commutes, then jump into them
at night or on the weekend go a couple blocks to pick up a gallon of
milk or something, never getting the engine warm. Repeatedly.

or who start their car frequently when the
oil isn’t hot (when most engine wear occurs) should change their oil
more often—at least twice a year, even if that’s every 1,000 miles,
according to Edmunds. But commuters who drive more than 20 miles a day
on mostly flat freeway can go as far as their owner’s manual recommends,
if not longer, between changes. As a car ages, more frequent changes
might be in order, but that’s for a qualified mechanic to decide on a
case-by-case basis.

“The necessity of 3,000 mile oil changes is a myth that has been handed
down for decades,†writes Austin Davis, proprietor of the website
TrustMyMechanic.com. He says that the economics of the oil change
industry demand pushing customers to get their oil changed more
frequently—purportedly as “cheap insurance†against problems cropping
up—whether they need it or not. One of the largest oil change chains,
Jiffy Lube, for instance, is owned by Pennzoil-Quaker State, and as such
has an incentive to sell as much of the company’s traditional
petroleum-based oil as possible."

No surprise that oil companies want to sell more oil.

The bottom line is that 3000 mile oil changes are nearly always a
complete waste of money. They do not extend the life of the engine one
iota. Taking the myth to even greater levels of absurdity, why not
change it every 1000 miles or 500 miles. After all it's "cheap
insurance" so you should buy as much cheap insurance as you can.

You just pick an acceptable duration - to you - according to your
judgement of what facts are as you see them.
BTW, using the above logic, why change at 7,500 mile?
Why not 15,000, or 30,000? After all, you're just forking over money
to the oil companies.
As I said, NOBODY knows the difference 3000 vs 7500 mile oil changes
have on the engine in the long run. NOBODY.
Even somebody who gets an oil analysis done every change doesn't know
the actual effects of those results.
Let common sense be your guide if you have no scientific data to back
up your inclinations.
My mark is 3000 miles, but I'm not religious about it, and sometimes
go to 4000. It's not a big deal. The oil gets recycled.

--Vic

 

[jim]

If the vehicle is used solely for short trips, more frequent changes are
needed because the moisture that builds up in the oil is never
vaporized. You might see some seniors in Florida that just drive from
their condo to the supermarket or shopping center in this category, but
not a lot of people fall into this category.

The places like Jiffy Lube has valiantly tried to claim that nearly
every vehicle is in "severe service" because nearly every vehicle is
used for short trips on occasion.

Scientific American got it right:

"According to the automotive website Edmunds.com, the answer depends
more on driving patterns than anything else. Those who rarely drive more
than 10 miles at a time (which doesn’t get the oil hot enough to boil
off moisture condensation) or who start their car frequently when the
oil isn’t hot (when most engine wear occurs) should change their oil
more often—at least twice a year, even if that’s every 1,000 miles,
according to Edmunds. But commuters who drive more than 20 miles a day
on mostly flat freeway can go as far as their owner’s manual recommends,
if not longer, between changes. As a car ages, more frequent changes
might be in order, but that’s for a qualified mechanic to decide on a
case-by-case basis.

Here is a question for you to ponder. How is the "qualified mechanic"
going to determine if the little blue haired lady's car needs more
frequent oil changes?

 

[Vic Smith]

Here is a question for you to ponder. How is the "qualified mechanic"
going to determine if the little blue haired lady's car needs more
frequent oil changes?

Is the Jiffy Lube guy a "qualified mechanic?"
How about the "qualified mechanic" whose business is slow?
I think she's gonna need more frequent oil changes.

--Vic

 

[dr_jeff]

Is the Jiffy Lube guy a "qualified mechanic?"
How about the "qualified mechanic" whose business is slow?
I think she's gonna need more frequent oil changes.

--Vic

How should a qualified mechanic know how often to change oil, other than
following the recommended change intervals by the engineers who designed
to the car? Mechanics are trained to fix things and do preventive
maintenance. They don't have the training in organic chemistry,
metallurgy or engineering to make better recommendations than the car
makers.

 

[C. E. White]

Is the Jiffy Lube guy a "qualified mechanic?"
How about the "qualified mechanic" whose business is slow?
I think she's gonna need more frequent oil changes.

I like the GM system for determining oil change intervals. It is not
perfect, but it does at least attempt to modify oil change intervals to
compensate for varations in the vehicle usage. I had a Saturn that used it.
I never actually waited until the oil change light came on, but with the
light providing a stop point, I felt a lot better about extending the oil
change interval.

For most of my life I have been a 3000 mile oil change guy. But after seeing
how well things went for people I know who change at longer intervals, I
decided to go for longer intervals as well. I figure for everything I own,
5000 miles is a good interval.

Changing oil too often is not cheap insurance if there is no benefit.

Ed

 

[jim]

How should a qualified mechanic know how often to change oil, other than
following the recommended change intervals by the engineers who designed
to the car? Mechanics are trained to fix things and do preventive
maintenance. They don't have the training in organic chemistry,
metallurgy or engineering to make better recommendations than the car
makers.

Most mechanics have working eyeballs. Do you think these engines could
use more frequent oil changes?

http://delanytowing.com/candiscorner/media/blogs/a/oil-sludge.jpg
http://www.schleeter.com/images/oil sludge 98 BMW.JPG

 

[Ashton Crusher]

USPS does for many of their vehicles. Of course, they beat the crap out
of them. There are other exceptions, I am sure, of what you say above.

But, for the most part, you are correct.


I hate to be picky, but what Consumer Reports says about taxis is not
relevant to most people.

I only mention it because the car makers love to stick that in the car
manual as "severe severe" when it's clear that it's not.

 

[dr_jeff]

Most mechanics have working eyeballs. Do you think these engines could
use more frequent oil changes?

http://delanytowing.com/candiscorner/media/blogs/a/oil-sludge.jpg
http://www.schleeter.com/images/oil sludge 98 BMW.JPG

Obviously, they do. However, the vast majority of engines do not build
up sludge like that. And, the parts shown are not visible from the
outside of the engine. How often should the engine had its oil changed?

What you're making is a straw man argument. You have yet to explain how
a mechanic is supposed to know how often to change oil. It is obvious
when there is a bunch of sludge in the engine that it should have been
more often. But you haven't said how to determine how often.

 

[Ashton Crusher]

I like the GM system for determining oil change intervals. It is not
perfect, but it does at least attempt to modify oil change intervals to
compensate for varations in the vehicle usage. I had a Saturn that used it.
I never actually waited until the oil change light came on, but with the
light providing a stop point, I felt a lot better about extending the oil
change interval.

For most of my life I have been a 3000 mile oil change guy. But after seeing
how well things went for people I know who change at longer intervals, I
decided to go for longer intervals as well. I figure for everything I own,
5000 miles is a good interval.

Changing oil too often is not cheap insurance if there is no benefit.

Ed

Now that you mention the GM system.... My 95 Caprice had that in it.
We changed the oil, per our fleet policy, every 6000. The oil change
light came on almost always about 500 to 1000 miles sooner, IF it came
on at all, between resets/oil changes. So based on that I'd say the
GM algorithm came pretty close to calling for a 6000 mile interval.