Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

[C. E. White]

With no disrespect, can you cite a source for this statement?

Doesn't this seem self evident? I didn't specify a particualr
"certain" size, so the statement could be interperted to mean
particles somewhere between the size of an individual atoms and the
size of the earth. Don't you agree that there are particles so small
that they won't damage your engine? And if there are such particles,
wouldn't it be a bad idea to trap these particles in the filter, since
they would tend to clog up the fitler element and restrict oil flow?

Most engineering decisions are a compromise. In the case of an oil
filter, removing a lot of very small relatively harmless particles
reduces the life of an oil filter without any substantial compensating
benefit. The actual size of the these non-harful particles will be
dependent on the engine design (bearing clearances, materials, design
life, etc.). I am sure there is always a size of particle that could
be considerd harmless (or at least does so little harm that it is
insignificant).

It seems to me that most light vehicle (i.e., passenger car) oil
filters target particles larger than 10 to 20 microns. 20 microns
seems to the most common target for decent filters. Some filters claim
to remove particles as small as 10 microns (but at a reduced
efficiency). For most car owners, I think a filter that removes 96% of
particles 20 microns or larger in one pass is sufficient. Removing
smaller particles might reduce wear but I doubt the difference would
be significant or cost effective. If you change your oil per the
vehicle manufacturer's recommendations (not Jiffy Lube's!) and use a
decent quality fitler, internal engine wear is not likely to be a
significant problem area. For large trucks and industrial equipment, a
more robust filter system may be appropriate. For these applications
there are special oil filtration systems available to remove very
samll particles. I don't think these are cost effective for typical
car owners.

Ed
Ed

Ed

 

[jim]

That is why I stopped buying them too. As I repeat, I never had a problem
with them of any kind, but swimming upstream for no reason is not
productive.

That is fine. "Saying I never had a problem with them of any kind and I
don't use them" is different than saying "they will cause all kinds of
problems including engine failure so I don't use them". The difference
is one is honest and truthful the other is not.

-jim

 

[Licker]

The started out as an interest link but has turned into a whine and shouting
match.

Facts learned:
<Someone had a problem with a Fram filter that came loose at the
threads.
<Someone tested filters and some filter better then others
<Some change their oil every 3000 miles but some claim it is wasting
money and others feel it is not
<There are rumors that Fram filters are crap and there is no one way
site that anyone so far has pointed anyone to that
proves Fram filters are crap.
<Some refuse to use Fram Filters although they never experienced any
problems based off of stories they heard. Better safe
then sorry
<Amsol causes harm to catylatic converters so it is recommend by many
not to use it unless you wnat early failure
<Some people have stoop down to name calling because people don't agree
with them. Childish

People this thread has been going on for a very long time. It will never
end because some of you are trying to change peoples minds that are made and
refused to change. This goes both ways Pro Fram and Anti Fram.

Next you will be debating which oil works better with Fram filters and which
doesn't. Rotella, Mobile, Havoline, Quaker State, Penzoil. Where do you
stop arguing on a converstation you will not win because both all parties
are not going to change there mind.

Can we agree to disagree and stop acting like an only child that no one
wants to play football with until he got a new football. Then he is happy
until they won't play by his rules so he takes his ball home.

 

[Pubert]

The started out as an interest link but has turned into a whine and shouting
match.

Facts learned:

<Some people have stoop down to name calling because people don't agree
with them. Childish

OK....changed the oil in the Soob today ,a dn installed a Wix filter. Just
by lokking at it it appeared to be a better made filter.

No change in oil pressure...

However that horrible clacking noise went away in about 2 minutes, after
clacking for the past week. Previously, changing oil did NOT eliminate the
clacking noise once it started.

Filter change do that? I don't know. I don't care. It stopped.

Let's revise that. Not only has the clattering gone away, but there
has
been a noticable rise in oil pressure, esp at higher revs. Oil
pressure
goes much higher than it did before, and does not bottom to 0 on the
gauge...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We all know that the OP is delusional or must be a liar liar pants
on fire. Right? Yea, right...
The OP's results from simply changing out the Fram filter tells the
only
story that really matters in this case.
Results talk. Framboyee's delusional babble has taken the walk.
Unfortunately, he hasn't realized it yet.

 

[jim]

Let's revise that. Not only has the clattering gone away, but there
has
been a noticable rise in oil pressure, esp at higher revs. Oil
pressure
goes much higher than it did before, and does not bottom to 0 on the
gauge...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We all know that the OP is delusional or must be a liar liar pants
on fire. Right? Yea, right...
The OP's results from simply changing out the Fram filter tells the
only
story that really matters in this case.

This guy changed the oil and an oil pressure problem went away. Had he
gone to the Dealership and purchased the OEM filter it probably would
have had the exact same result. Fram makes the OEM filter for Subaru.
the on difference is the paint on the outside.

He has a defective engine with low oil pressure. How did it get that
way? Probably due to some action he took on the basis of some stupid
superstitious belief. I met a guy that actually believed that pouring
sand in the intake of an engine was good for it.

-jim

Results talk. Framboyee's delusional babble has taken the walk.

The millions of properly running engines that use Fram oil filters are
not having problems.

 

[N8N]

That is fine. "Saying I never had a problem with them of any kind and I
don't use them" is different than saying "they will cause all kinds of
problems including engine failure so I don't use them". The difference
is one is honest and truthful the other is not.

-jim

How about "I *have* had problems with Frams in the past, which
switching to another filter brand solved, and therefore I no longer
buy Frams" - is that "valid?"

Or are you going to call me a liar, asshole? Or accuse me of driving
a "defective" car? Just STFU and go away, you annoying moron.

nate

 

[N8N]

(e-mail address removed) wrote:

I don't need to


I never needed to check a valve. I only did it in recent years because I
was hearing so many liars claiming they didn't work. I haven't found one
that doesn't. I don't get any start up clatter with a fram filter even
when the car sits for weeks without running.

Probably because your car has a base-up filter.

The only reason the drain back valve will fail is if excessive amount of
dirt is holding it open. If the car has had good care that won't ever
happen.

Or if it's a Fram filter, then it *NEVER* works.

That would seem obvious only to the superstitious person. If the engine
has a purolator filter and clatters on cold starts and you change the
oil and put on a Fram filter - that would have fix the problem too.
Getting the dirty oil out of the engine is what fixed the problem. Your
superstitious beliefs have blinded you.

Except the ADBVs on Purolators usually don't fail, and the ones on
Fram filters usually *do.*

How is it "superstitious" to switch from using a defective product to
using a good product?

nate

 

[N8N]

Zero benefit doesn't mean zero effect. Your engine will last just as
long if you change at 5000, but it won't be as clean on the inside when
it goes to the bone yard. And yes there probably is no benefit to
delivering a clean engine to the wrecking yard.


If you weren't so retarded you would remember that you were the one that
was worried about engine damage due to inadequate lubrication. I'm not
the one who is worried.  The smartest thing to do to alleviate your
worries is to change the oil more often.

        The fact is if you use the cheapest oil and cheapest filter and follow
the engine makers recommendations for change intervals your chances of
having the engine die due to inadequate lubrication before the rest of
the car dies is close to zero.

        Most of the stories I have read from Internet Fram bashers indicate to
me that these idiots have either too much dirt in their engines or they
have a mechanical problem (like a weak oil pump, or that the equipment
that controls oil pressure is malfunctioning, or they have an air leak
between the oil pump and the oil sump, or some other mechanical
problem).

        These people usually resort to Voodoo to solve their problems. Bashing
an oil filter is not going to fix your car. And if the problem is an
overload of  dirt in the engine, then buying expensive oil and filter
that advertises that it  does a better job of storing the dirt inside
the engine is a really extremely dumb solution. A much safer and more
reliable solution is to get rid of the dirt.

-jim







- Show quoted text -

You're an idiot. Please stop subjecting us to your idiocy.

nate

 

[N8N]

Can you cite a source for this, Nate?

I believe that the ad copy for any good preoiler has this information,
but I don't have time to find an example at the moment. maybe on CM's
web site?

nate

 

[jim]

Or if it's a Fram filter, then it *NEVER* works.

You are ignorant.

 

[N8N]

You are ignorant.

You are wrong. And ignorant, arrogant, and an asshole. Please ****
off.

nate

 

[jim]

You are wrong. And ignorant, arrogant, and an asshole. Please ****
off.

You know you could have very easily and simply made a determination
about whether the filter anti drain back valve was working. I suspect
you didn't know how to do that or you didn't want to do that. Instead
you chose to speculate and conjecture about what was happening. There
isn't much evidence in your story to go on so I can see no good reason
to believe your guess about the cause is correct.

-jim

 

[Nate Nagel]

You know you could have very easily and simply made a determination
about whether the filter anti drain back valve was working. I suspect
you didn't know how to do that or you didn't want to do that.

I suspect that I *did* determine that the ADBV wasn't working, and had
my diagnosis confirmed by others.

Instead
you chose to speculate and conjecture about what was happening. There
isn't much evidence in your story to go on so I can see no good reason
to believe your guess about the cause is correct.

That's because you're an idiot, and like so many others you choose to
bloviate about topics upon which you have little first hand experience
but lots of book larnin' (and much of that incorrect or poorly
understood) and therefore you think you're a heck of a lot more
knowledgeable than you actually are.

To recap this whole sorry thread: Fram filters *demonstrably* have
several known issues, and are clearly of the cheapest construction of
all the "major brand" filters you're likely to see at your FLAPS (and
are at or below the quality level of most house brands for that matter.)
This is not arguable, it's fact. The only real question is "is it
good enough to be acceptable." I say, why take the chance when clearly
better filters are available at the same price? The fact that you have
continued arguing against this for over a week *proves* you're an idiot.

nate

 

[jim]

I suspect that I *did* determine that the ADBV wasn't working, and had
my diagnosis confirmed by others.

Yeah A bunch of fellow story tellers on the internet. None of them ever
saw your engine. And they are like you they wouldn't know what to look
for if they had seen your engine.

That's because you're an idiot, and like so many others you choose to
bloviate about topics upon which you have little first hand experience
but lots of book larnin' (and much of that incorrect or poorly
understood) and therefore you think you're a heck of a lot more
knowledgeable than you actually are.

I know from personal experience that the chrysler slant six did not
have a problem with Fram filters. For one thing the engine itself had
an anti drain back valve so by definition if your oil was leaking back
from the oil filter the engine was not working as designed. But you did
not have that problem. You just suppose that was the problem . There are
a number of known mechanical problems that produce the exact symptoms
you described. It wasn't the-miracle-of-the-fram-filter-removal that
fixed your problem it was the removal of dirty oil and replacing it with
clean oil that fixed your malfunctioning engine oil system.

To recap this whole sorry thread: Fram filters *demonstrably* have
several known issues, and are clearly of the cheapest construction of
all the "major brand" filters you're likely to see at your FLAPS

There is no real evidence of any "known issues" The only evidence is a
vocal minority of largely prejudiced people on the internet telling
stories. The millions of engines using Fram filters are not developing
the problems that vocal minority claims they all will.
And of course a Fram filter is cheap. Most oil filters people put on
cars are cheap. Probably every anti drain back valve in every filter you
find in your FLAPS is molded in China and costs the manufacturer less
than a dime a piece. Fram is not any different. There are $50 oil
filters available if you want to buy something that is not cheap.

(and
are at or below the quality level of most house brands for that matter.)

Fram makes more of the house brands than any other oil filter company.

This is nop arguable, it's fact.

No its silly statement you are saying Frams are better than Frams.

The only real question is "is it
good enough to be acceptable." I say, why take the chance when clearly
better filters are available at the same price? The fact that you have
continued arguing against this for over a week *proves* you're an idiot.

So your latest theory is that arguing with a fool makes you an idiot.
Well that is better logic than anything else you have come up with.

-jim

 

[Vic Smith]

You do and it does. That's why the RECOMMENDED method is to pull the
ECU fuse and crank 'till you get oil pressure before starting.

Looks like I wasn't clear, so let me say it a different way.
You hear clatter (or whatever you deem oil-related bad sounds) when
you start your car.
You blame it on the filter anti-drainback not working right.
Basically a dry filter.
A simple test to prove that is to replicate the conditions with a dry
filter when you do an oil change.
If all else if equal - temperature and time shut down, you should hear
the same sound.
Personally, I always change my oil warm, and usually have it done and
running again within 1/2 hour or so.
If you only hear the clatter after the engine is shut down for say 12
hours, you would have to leave it shut down for 12 hours after the oil
change to replicate that condition.
Seems you would hear the same noise after the oil change.
But it's not that simple.
What if you don't hear the noise after changing in a dry filter?
That might indicate the anti-drainback valve isn't the problem.
Maybe the old filter was clogged and delayed pressure build-up at the
parts being lubed.
Maybe the old filter developed some sort of cavitation or airlock
issue as it aged.
Anyway, Mr White's case is just inconclusive. I've heard plenty of
transitory "rackets" when starting engines that had nothing to do with
oil. Not saying it wasn't the filter. Just inconclusive to me.
Not taking a stand on the Frams because I don't use them.
But it's not real hard to test filters yourself if you set down some
test parameters on paper and follow them diligently.
I never will, because I've not had lube issues on my cars.
If I did, I'd probably just try a few different filters to see if that
helped, as some here have done.
And I never fool around soaking a filter or pulling the ECU fuse.
Can you imagine the Jiffy Lube guys pulling ECU fuses?
hehe. New can of worms there.

--Vic

 

[clare]

Looks like I wasn't clear, so let me say it a different way.
You hear clatter (or whatever you deem oil-related bad sounds) when
you start your car.
You blame it on the filter anti-drainback not working right.
Basically a dry filter.
A simple test to prove that is to replicate the conditions with a dry
filter when you do an oil change.
If all else if equal - temperature and time shut down, you should hear
the same sound.
Personally, I always change my oil warm, and usually have it done and
running again within 1/2 hour or so.
If you only hear the clatter after the engine is shut down for say 12
hours, you would have to leave it shut down for 12 hours after the oil
change to replicate that condition.
Seems you would hear the same noise after the oil change.
But it's not that simple.
What if you don't hear the noise after changing in a dry filter?
That might indicate the anti-drainback valve isn't the problem.
Maybe the old filter was clogged and delayed pressure build-up at the
parts being lubed.
Maybe the old filter developed some sort of cavitation or airlock
issue as it aged.

Except I know of cases where the problem STARTED with an oil and
filter change. And cases where filters were changed immediately
thereafter and the noise went away (with another Fram filter, even).
They don't ALL leak - but in my experience too many did years back
(I'm talking '70s and '80s) - and I never found a reason to go back to
using them myself, or when I had any say what was going onto
customer's vehicles.
I believe Canadian Tire had Fram making some of their filters in '75/
'76 and we had issues with them over the couple months I worked there
on my return from Africa. The lube guys would do an oil change, and a
couple days later the car was in the shop with complaints of the oil
light taking too long to go out, or valve noise on startup.

When I ran the service bays at the Shell station ( I was shop foreman
- 6 bay garage) we didn't use Fram filters - Shell filters were
Kralinator, I believe , and we'd get customers coming in complaining
of oil light taking too long to go out, or valve noise on startup.
Asked the customer when it started, and when they last had an oil
change - could be the oil had broken down/gone thin / been fuel
diluted etc. If the oil had been changed recently and the oil
felt/smelt good we'd check the filter.

If the filter was orange we'd change it first.

USUALLY solved the problem.

At the Esso station I ran we used Atlas Filters - made IIRC by
Purolator.

Then at Toyota we used the Toyota supplied filters (Purolator or WIX)
and when we ran out Mopar/AutoPar filters which were also made at that
time by Purolator. The Chrysler dealer up the road was pretty
agressive with their wholesale pricing and we used their filters on
all the non-Toyota vehicles we serviced.

I likely replaced a few non-Fram filters for the same problem - but
definitely not very many and I could not tell you what brand or on
what car.
On Toyota 3K engines I remeber we had a lot of issues with lazy oil
pressure lights - which were USUALLY caused by the infamous "Oil
Pisser" switch. If the switch wasn't wet, the filter was the next
thing we looked at (filter was base down)
The 8R and 18R engines were the same. On the T engines the filter was
horizontal and the filters were less critical. Same with the M series
and the 20r and 22r engines. On these engines it was USUALLY the "oil
pisser" switch when oil lights were slow going off. They all had solid
lifters, so valve clatter was not an issue. On the 8 and 18R series,
the hydraulic timing chain tensioners would complain very loudly on
dry starts - lots of chain rattle and not infrequently broken chain
guides. Funny, virtually NEVER had problems on vehicles we did all the
service on
The early F had a remote mounted filter, base up and didn't need an
anti-drain valve. (the old "stovebolt" Chevy engine made under
licence)

Anyway, Mr White's case is just inconclusive. I've heard plenty of
transitory "rackets" when starting engines that had nothing to do with
oil. Not saying it wasn't the filter. Just inconclusive to me.
Not taking a stand on the Frams because I don't use them.
But it's not real hard to test filters yourself if you set down some
test parameters on paper and follow them diligently.
I never will, because I've not had lube issues on my cars.
If I did, I'd probably just try a few different filters to see if that
helped, as some here have done.
And I never fool around soaking a filter or pulling the ECU fuse.
Can you imagine the Jiffy Lube guys pulling ECU fuses?
hehe. New can of worms there.

Back "in the day" we ALWAYS pulled the coil wire and cranked the
engine 'till the oil light went out or the needle moved. it was
POLICY. Then we got those darn integrated ignition units on the
Toyota " A" series engines - no coil wire - so we soon had to back
down on "policy" - but it was still recommended that the engine NOT be
allowed to come up to speed before the light went out. Crank it, and
if the engine started, shut it off and crank it again if the light
didn't go out right away.

 

[bugalugs]

Yeah A bunch of fellow story tellers on the internet. None of them ever
saw your engine. And they are like you they wouldn't know what to look
for if they had seen your engine.

And of course you were there saw it all and made your 'correct' diagnosis.

Just what is your relationship with Fram??

 

[jim]

And of course you were there saw it all and made your 'correct' diagnosis.

No Chrysler made the correct diagnosis. And Chrysler engineers designed
the engine so that what he supposes was happening can't happen.

Just what is your relationship with Fram??

I have used their filters for at least 40 years and never once seen any
of the problems that various people are claiming are likely to happen
with those filters.

But I'm not recommending Fram filters. I'm just sick and tired of
seeing lies and superstitions and fantasy being passed off as fact and
knowledge. An engine that is clean on the inside means whatever you are
doing for oil changes is working. An engine that has sludge, gum or
black goo on the inside means whatever you are doing for oil and filter
change is not working. And that is pretty much all you need to know
about oil changes.

If you take the typical modern engine and use the cheapest oil and
filter and change it as the car maker advises you will be able to take
that engine apart at 100K miles and find that the engine is still clean
on the inside and you will be able to still see the factory cross hatch
on the cylinder walls. The fact is most engines today will outlast the
rest of the car. The door hinges, the glass, the upholstery, the
suspension, the electrical system etc are all going to make you want to
get rid of the car long before the engine will.

-jim

 

[N8N]

Yeah A bunch of fellow story tellers on the internet. None of them ever
saw your engine. And they are like you they wouldn't know what to look
for if they had seen your engine.  



        I know from personal experience that the chrysler slant six did not
have a problem  with Fram filters. For one thing the engine itself had
an anti drain back valve so by definition if your oil was leaking back
from the oil filter the engine was not working as designed. But you did
not have that problem. You just suppose that was the problem . There are
a number of known mechanical problems that produce the exact symptoms
you described. It wasn't the-miracle-of-the-fram-filter-removal that
fixed your problem it was the removal of dirty oil and replacing it with
clean oil that fixed your malfunctioning engine oil system.

Odd then that both the Fram and Wix applications for that engine list
an integral ADBV. I don't remember the Fram no. but the Wix no. is
51515. look it up.

nate

 

[jim]

Except I know of cases where the problem STARTED with an oil and
filter change. And cases where filters were changed immediately
thereafter and the noise went away (with another Fram filter, even).
They don't ALL leak - but in my experience too many did years back
(I'm talking '70s and '80s) - and I never found a reason to go back to
using them myself, or when I had any say what was going onto
customer's vehicles.

Your not keeping up with the folklore. Most of the Fram bashers I have
read say that Fram made good filters back then. According to all the
folklore I have read on the internet it was only after the companies
ownership changed in the 90's that the filter became cheap and
unreliable. Before that according to most folklorists they were good
filters.

You missed the point of the post you were responding to for the second
time.

I believe Canadian Tire had Fram making some of their filters in '75/
'76 and we had issues with them over the couple months I worked there
on my return from Africa. The lube guys would do an oil change, and a
couple days later the car was in the shop with complaints of the oil
light taking too long to go out, or valve noise on startup.

When I ran the service bays at the Shell station ( I was shop foreman
- 6 bay garage) we didn't use Fram filters - Shell filters were
Kralinator, I believe , and we'd get customers coming in complaining
of oil light taking too long to go out, or valve noise on startup.
Asked the customer when it started, and when they last had an oil
change - could be the oil had broken down/gone thin / been fuel
diluted etc. If the oil had been changed recently and the oil
felt/smelt good we'd check the filter.

But all of this is ancient history and not particularly useful to most
people today. It may interest you to know that in the period from 1950's
to the 90's almost every multigrade dino oil on the market gave
inadequate protection if the engine oil temp exceeded 240F. That means
if your engine overheated you were basically screwed. And the affect of
heat on the oil was not temporary in most cases it was permanent. that
means if you didn't change the oil immediately following the overheating
incident you were doubly screwed. The fact that you have horror stories
that revolve around engine lubrication problems from 30 years ago is not
at all surprising. But what does this ancient history have to do with
today?

If the filter was orange we'd change it first.

OK so you have been superstitious for a long time. I have never seen a
filter of any type cause problems in a clean engine. I've never seen a
dirty engine that wasn't in a death spiral. The fact that you were very
good at treating the symptoms and ignoring the root causes of problems
is not very impressive.

USUALLY solved the problem.

At the Esso station I ran we used Atlas Filters - made IIRC by
Purolator.

Then at Toyota we used the Toyota supplied filters (Purolator or WIX)
and when we ran out Mopar/AutoPar filters which were also made at that
time by Purolator. The Chrysler dealer up the road was pretty
agressive with their wholesale pricing and we used their filters on
all the non-Toyota vehicles we serviced.

I likely replaced a few non-Fram filters for the same problem - but
definitely not very many and I could not tell you what brand or on
what car.

That's because you are superstitious. You see and remember what you
want to see and remember don't see and remember what you don't want to
see and remember. Take the guy with the motocraft filter that had
missing threads. That story till now was mostly forgotten. Had that been
a story about a Fram filter, you would by now be able to google and find
that story on 50 web pages. All I see is evidence that you are not the
only one. There more than just you that predisposed to selectively
remembering things.

On Toyota 3K engines I remeber we had a lot of issues with lazy oil
pressure lights - which were USUALLY caused by the infamous "Oil
Pisser" switch. If the switch wasn't wet, the filter was the next
thing we looked at (filter was base down)
The 8R and 18R engines were the same. On the T engines the filter was
horizontal and the filters were less critical. Same with the M series
and the 20r and 22r engines. On these engines it was USUALLY the "oil
pisser" switch when oil lights were slow going off. They all had solid
lifters, so valve clatter was not an issue. On the 8 and 18R series,
the hydraulic timing chain tensioners would complain very loudly on
dry starts - lots of chain rattle and not infrequently broken chain
guides. Funny, virtually NEVER had problems on vehicles we did all the
service on

Yes and this means what? Again all i see is someone who is only
interested in symptoms not root causes. Foe example, take the case of
an engine with hydraulic lifters. If the engine and oil is kept clean
then the check valve in each valve lifter should keep the lifter filled
while the oil is being changed. In a properly working engine you really
shouldn't be getting valve clatter when you start the engine after the
oil change. It is only in dirty and/or worn engines that lifters will
bleed down wile you are doing an oil change.

The early F had a remote mounted filter, base up and didn't need an
anti-drain valve. (the old "stovebolt" Chevy engine made under
licence)

Back "in the day" we ALWAYS pulled the coil wire and cranked the
engine 'till the oil light went out or the needle moved. it was
POLICY. Then we got those darn integrated ignition units on the
Toyota " A" series engines - no coil wire - so we soon had to back
down on "policy" - but it was still recommended that the engine NOT be
allowed to come up to speed before the light went out. Crank it, and
if the engine started, shut it off and crank it again if the light
didn't go out right away.

Well that is mostly just superstition. There are plenty of engines that
use cheap oil and filter and they get changed and started up after the
oil change without any special procedure and the engine ends up lasting
longer than the rest of the car. There is no evidence that your
precautions would make any difference to the life of the engine.

-jim