Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

[jim]

When it comes to consumer products, often anecdotal evidence from users
of the product, and reviews from individuals that tear down and evaluate
the build quality, are all you have to go by. For oil filters there's no
independent testing agency that runs around testing every model of
filter from every manufacturer on every different vehicle that the
filter fits.

No and that would not be very intelligent way to manage Quality
Assurance. You don't need an 1980 air-cooled VW or a 1972 Dodge Dart and
30 below temperatures to hydrostatic test the burst pressure of a
filter. Burst test are in fact done by independent laboratories.

Based on the teardowns of Fram filters,

Teardowns by whom? Are you talking about idiots on the internet cutting
filters open? Or are you talking about the Quality Assurance department
(that every engine manufacture has), which carefully examine all the
engines that get replaced under warranty and sent back to the
manufacturer?

and based on extensive anecdotal
evidence, the logical thing to do would be to play it safer by going
with an OEM filter rather than risk using a Fram filter.

In some cases the OEM filter is made by Fram. Did your internet sources
for folklore fail to inform you of that?

Maybe all the
reports of Fram filter failures are fiction, but those reports, combined
with so many different evaluations by those that disassemble filters,
make it probable that where there's so much smoke that there's probably
fire.

Yes and that is exactly what an hysterical true believer would imagine.
But where is there any believable evidence? The only thing I see
evidence of is a phenomena I call folklore and mass hysteria.

The fact is that millions of Fram filters are used on engines under
warranty. Some of those engines do fail and manufacturers do replace
those failed engines and all engine makers do post-mortems to determine
what causes failures. So if there really was any smoke or fire it would
show up somewhere at some time in that process. But that is not where
the evidence is coming from. The so called evidence is always somebody
with an old beater that has deluded himself and is now trying to
convince others that a Fram filter is the bogeyman out to get his
engine.

-jim

 

[jim]

Where did I say it was BECAUSE that filter split that it was the last
Fram filter I used?????
Nowhere - that's where.

It just happens that trip co-incided with my changing employment from
the general repair garage that used Fram to a Toyota dealership -
where Putolator built Toyota branded filters were available to me at a
good price - and Toyota used the same PH8 style filter the "leaning
tower of power" used.

Actually, for a while, CMI (Canadian Motor Industries - Now Toyota
Canada) was supplying japanese built filters, and I used them.

And the filter did NOT split. It just "blew off". Took the threads
right out of the base plate. SHOULD have blown the gasket out first,
but didn't

There are several serious problems with your tale. The Fram filter
folklore says the cans are the weak link and they blow apart. So you are
contradicting what others have claimed. The force on the threads due to
the mechanical advantage is really quite high just from tightening the
filter by hand. You are suggesting the shell of the filter is really a
whole lot stronger than what others have claimed.

Another problem with your story is you also have already related in the
past posts how this engine clattered on cold starts. A known reason for
such clatter is a sticky valve in the engine at the outlet of the filter
that doesn't open until the oil pressure builds up and finally pop it
open. This new tale you are now telling suggests that when it gets down
to 45 below the valve which eventually opens at higher temps can stay
permanently stuck. At any rate I don't see any evidence that clearly
points to a defective filter. All the evidence I see points to an
incompetent diagnosis of the problem.

-jim

 

[C. E. White]

Where did I say it was BECAUSE that filter split that it was the last
Fram filter I used?????
Nowhere - that's where.

It just happens that trip co-incided with my changing employment from
the general repair garage that used Fram to a Toyota dealership -
where Putolator built Toyota branded filters were available to me at a
good price - and Toyota used the same PH8 style filter the "leaning
tower of power" used.

Actually, for a while, CMI (Canadian Motor Industries - Now Toyota
Canada) was supplying japanese built filters, and I used them.

And the filter did NOT split. It just "blew off". Took the threads
right out of the base plate. SHOULD have blown the gasket out first,
but didn't

You just reminded me of a weird problem I had a couple of years back. I
picked up a Motorcraft Filter from the local garage. When I tried to install
it, I just could not get the threads started on the filter adapter. I
finally gave up trying and took a good look at the filter - it wasn't
threaded! The shop gave me a replacement. I've never seen this before or
since.

Ed

 

[Nate Nagel]

There are several serious problems with your tale. The Fram filter
folklore says the cans are the weak link and they blow apart. So you are
contradicting what others have claimed. The force on the threads due to
the mechanical advantage is really quite high just from tightening the
filter by hand. You are suggesting the shell of the filter is really a
whole lot stronger than what others have claimed.

Another problem with your story is you also have already related in the
past posts how this engine clattered on cold starts. A known reason for
such clatter is a sticky valve in the engine at the outlet of the filter
that doesn't open until the oil pressure builds up and finally pop it
open. This new tale you are now telling suggests that when it gets down
to 45 below the valve which eventually opens at higher temps can stay
permanently stuck. At any rate I don't see any evidence that clearly
points to a defective filter. All the evidence I see points to an
incompetent diagnosis of the problem.

-jim

You're right, Frams are the bestest filters ever. We believe you. Now
will you STFU already?

nate

 

[Ashton Crusher]

You just reminded me of a weird problem I had a couple of years back. I
picked up a Motorcraft Filter from the local garage. When I tried to install
it, I just could not get the threads started on the filter adapter. I
finally gave up trying and took a good look at the filter - it wasn't
threaded! The shop gave me a replacement. I've never seen this before or
since.

Ed

Those are press on filters. Just put your scissors jack under them.

 

[Heron McKeister]

You're right, Frams are the bestest filters ever. We believe you. Now
will you STFU already?

nate

I, for one, consider it pathetic and quite telling how
you (including some others) intentionally, purposefully
and repeatedly attempt to misrepresent his easily
understood stance and remarks despite his, unlike
your own, rational approach and patient spoonfed
explanations. You clearly "doth protest too much".

 

[Nate Nagel]

I, for one, consider it pathetic and quite telling how
you (including some others) intentionally, purposefully
and repeatedly attempt to misrepresent his easily
understood stance and remarks despite his, unlike
your own, rational approach and patient spoonfed
explanations. You clearly "doth protest too much".

No, you are the one who is misunderstanding.

His stance is "Frams meet manufacturer's specifications."

Mine is "Frams have the highest rate of failures as measured by all
metrics to which I have access, and they appear to be a cheap, shoddily
made product. Therefore I don't buy them."

The two may not even be mutually exclusive, and to be abused for a
viewpoint like mine is ignorant and assaholic.

nate

 

[clare]

I'll tell you waht, Jim. You are free to believe as you like, and to
use Fram filters on your vehicles. Nobody's forcing you to forgo your
"orange" fix.
The rest of us are free to use anything BUT Fram if we so wish. For
you, it appears Fram Filters are either a religion or a political
party (not that American politics much differentiates) and you have
decided you don't want to hear the facts, your mind's already made up.

 

[clare]

I see what I see. If you paid attention you might too.

The FTC for whatever reason seems to be intensely interested in claims
manufacturer make about automobile related products. They seem to think
it is extremely important to police the after market products for cars.
However, there power is pretty much limited to determining if
advertising claims are valid.

If it hasn't anything to do with automotive safety or emission
controls, they are less "rabid" in their enforcement.

 

[clare]

No and that would not be very intelligent way to manage Quality
Assurance. You don't need an 1980 air-cooled VW or a 1972 Dodge Dart and
30 below temperatures to hydrostatic test the burst pressure of a
filter. Burst test are in fact done by independent laboratories.


Teardowns by whom? Are you talking about idiots on the internet cutting
filters open? Or are you talking about the Quality Assurance department
(that every engine manufacture has), which carefully examine all the
engines that get replaced under warranty and sent back to the
manufacturer?

And all engines that get replaced are sent back to the manufacturer to
be torn down????
NOT!!!
Mabee one in 10, or one in 50, or every one that dies a particular
death after they decide they just MIGHT have a quality problem.
Certainly not anywhere close to every failure.

In some cases the OEM filter is made by Fram. Did your internet sources
for folklore fail to inform you of that?

Name me a single OEM filter currently confirmed to be made by Fram and
specify which of the numerous Fram models it actually is.

 

[clare]

There are several serious problems with your tale. The Fram filter
folklore says the cans are the weak link and they blow apart. So you are
contradicting what others have claimed. The force on the threads due to
the mechanical advantage is really quite high just from tightening the
filter by hand. You are suggesting the shell of the filter is really a
whole lot stronger than what others have claimed.

I'm not contadicting ANYTHING anyone else has said. I'm just saying
mine blew off without splitting - and I'm not saying THAT was Fram's
fault. (it WAS cold, and the oil WAS thick). I'm also stating that was
NOT the reason it was virtually the last Fram filter I've used. That
experience is NOT why I choose not to buy Fram filters today.

Another problem with your story is you also have already related in the
past posts how this engine clattered on cold starts. A known reason for
such clatter is a sticky valve in the engine at the outlet of the filter
that doesn't open until the oil pressure builds up and finally pop it
open.

You do not understand how the filter valve works There is no valve in
any oil filter that opperates as you state - and the engine that
clattered on startup was NOT the 225 69 Dart - it was a 3.0 1998 New
Yorker. A '69 225 does not have hydraulic lifters.

This new tale you are now telling suggests that when it gets down
to 45 below the valve which eventually opens at higher temps can stay
permanently stuck. At any rate I don't see any evidence that clearly
points to a defective filter. All the evidence I see points to an
incompetent diagnosis of the problem.

Your diagnosis is worse than faulty. You can't read either.

 

[clare]

You just reminded me of a weird problem I had a couple of years back. I
picked up a Motorcraft Filter from the local garage. When I tried to install
it, I just could not get the threads started on the filter adapter. I
finally gave up trying and took a good look at the filter - it wasn't
threaded! The shop gave me a replacement. I've never seen this before or
since.

Ed

Don't get me started.
I've seen whole CASES of filtes that were not threaded.
I've seen filtes that were not completely painted. I've seen cases of
filters wirhout base gaskets.

Were they designed that way????
Certainly not - but they were BUILT AND SHIPPED that way.
Yet there are guys on this list who claim it is impossible for a
company to supply defective oil filters to the market.

QUALITY CONTROL is the name of the game.
Some have it. Some don't.

 

[Heron McKeister]

No, you are the one who is misunderstanding.

I most sincerely doubt it.

His stance is "Frams meet manufacturer's specifications."

Which is no doubt why you've, multiple times no less,
erroneously characterized his position as being along
the lines of "Frams are the bestest filters ever".

 

[Heron McKeister]

I'll tell you waht, Jim. You are free to believe as you like, and to
use Fram filters on your vehicles. Nobody's forcing you to forgo your
"orange" fix.
The rest of us are free to use anything BUT Fram if we so wish. For
you, it appears Fram Filters are either a religion or a political
party (not that American politics much differentiates) and you have
decided you don't want to hear the facts, your mind's already made up.

Yet another perfect, textbook example of a
steaming pile of horseshit.

 

[C. E. White]

But according to Jim, Fram are not the 'worst quality filters."

Even I agree Fram filters are not the worst quality filters. There are some
others that are far worse (IMO).

Also, many years ago CR did a report on oil filters. Since at that

time I had two new Toyotas, I was pretty pleased when the little

sidebar said, "If you own a Toyota, you're getting the best filter

made from the Toyota dealer."

Well I don't agree with this. I don't think the Thailand made Toyota
aftermarket filter for the RAV4 4 cylinder is a particularly good filter. It
is not a bad filter, but there are other filters I like better (including
the OE style Toyota Filter that came on the vehicle). I have a case of the
Thailand made Toyota filters, and don't plan to throw them away, but when I
order replacements, I am going to make sure I get the OE style Japanese made
Toyota filters. If those aren't available, I'll probably switch the RAV4s
over to the Purolator PureOne filter.



Ed

 

[jim]

And all engines that get replaced are sent back to the manufacturer to
be torn down????
NOT!!!
Mabee one in 10, or one in 50, or every one that dies a particular
death after they decide they just MIGHT have a quality problem.
Certainly not anywhere close to every failure.

May be that is what Toyota does but the US auto makers insist on doing failure
analysis.

Name me a single OEM filter currently confirmed to be made by Fram and
specify which of the numerous Fram models it actually is.

Well I read it at the beginning of the thread and that was a long tome ago but
from memory Honda, Subaru and Mack trucks have their filters made by Fram.

 

[jim]

I'm not contadicting ANYTHING anyone else has said.

I'm just saying
mine blew off without splitting - and I'm not saying THAT was Fram's
fault. (it WAS cold, and the oil WAS thick). I'm also stating that was
NOT the reason it was virtually the last Fram filter I've used. That
experience is NOT why I choose not to buy Fram filters today.

OK the story had no purpose. Got it.

You do not understand how the filter valve works There is no valve in
any oil filter that opperates as you state -

The valve is not in the filter, the valve is in the standpipe to which the
filter attaches.

and the engine that
clattered on startup was NOT the 225 69 Dart - it was a 3.0 1998 New
Yorker. A '69 225 does not have hydraulic lifters.

Yes I know that. And IIRC that engine would start out with very little clatter
when it was cold and the valves clatter would be louder when it warmed up. And
there never was any problem with Fram filters and those engines. So where did
that myth come from and why were you previously help promote that myth?

Your diagnosis is worse than faulty. You can't read either.

I don't think any one can read something that is not written. When did you ever
mention a Chrysler New Yorker before now?

-jim

 

[clare]

May be that is what Toyota does but the US auto makers insist on doing failure
analysis.

Ford didn't take my engine back for analysis when they changed it. It
went into the scrap bucket after the"road man" verified it had, in
fact, been replaced. A lot of Chrysler engines were scrapped before
they decided they had a sludge/coking problem that needed to be
addressed - after which they took several hundred back for inspection

 

[clare]

OK the story had no purpose. Got it.



The valve is not in the filter, the valve is in the standpipe to which the
filter attaches.

In some engines the backflow prevention, or anti-drainback valve is
located there - but virtually no pressure is required to open it

Yes I know that. And IIRC that engine would start out with very little clatter
when it was cold and the valves clatter would be louder when it warmed up. And
there never was any problem with Fram filters and those engines. So where did
that myth come from and why were you previously help promote that myth?




I don't think any one can read something that is not written. When did you ever
mention a Chrysler New Yorker before now?

Several days ago I mentioned the cold start clatter on the New
Yorker. (3.0 Mitsubishi)

 

[SMS]

And all engines that get replaced are sent back to the manufacturer to
be torn down????
NOT!!!
Mabee one in 10, or one in 50, or every one that dies a particular
death after they decide they just MIGHT have a quality problem.
Certainly not anywhere close to every failure.

You see the same kind of claims by corporations that are as clueless as
Jim. Just look at the Amsoil warranty claims. Even though there are
specific reasons why most Amsoil products cannot be API certified, and
these reasons can have negative effects you get the song and dance about
how no one has ever shown that a failure was related to the oil, as if
that constitutes proof of anything.

Premature engine failure, of engines already out of warranty, are the
key problem with using inferior quality filters. The engine fails at
150K miles rather than 300K miles because of a faulty anti-drainback
valve and there's no teardown of the engine to figure out why it failed.