Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

[jim]

You see the same kind of claims by corporations that are as clueless as
Jim. Just look at the Amsoil warranty claims. Even though there are
specific reasons why most Amsoil products cannot be API certified, and
these reasons can have negative effects you get the song and dance about
how no one has ever shown that a failure was related to the oil, as if
that constitutes proof of anything.

Well I didn't know much about amsoil but something smelled very fishy in
your story so a quick trip to their web site at amsoil.com and and look
at their 5w30 oil and it claims to have API certification. It also has
ILSAC 4 certification. Then i took a trip to the API webpage and sure
enough Amsoil Inc. is listed in their licensee directory.

So where are you getting your misinformation?

Premature engine failure, of engines already out of warranty, are the
key problem with using inferior quality filters. The engine fails at
150K miles rather than 300K miles because of a faulty anti-drainback
valve and there's no teardown of the engine to figure out why it failed.

Except that is complete bullshit that you created by pulling it out of
your clueless ass. I have tested the anti-drainback valves on Fram
filters and they do not fail as the mythology claims they do. I have
never heard of any of the internet story tellers who have actually ever
tested the valve on a single filter. Not one person that is passing on
this folklore has checked one single valve.

I have checked them on filters after they were used using the dirty oil
and have never found one that didn't work. The people who claim they are
likely to leak don't have a clue. They are just idiots. If you cut the
filter open, then the valve as well as the rest of the filter will no
longer function properly. The very definition of a retard is someone who
cuts a filter open to see if the anti drain back valve works.

If you want your engine to last 500K miles just buy the cheapest oil and
filter and change the oil every 3000 miles. If you are really concerned
about keeping dirt from harming your engine it makes very little sense
to concoct an elaborate and expensive scheme for storing dirt inside
your engines lubricating system. That is not a fail safe method of
dealing with engine dirt. It makes much more sense to let your
neighborhood recycling center take the dirt rather than trying to store
it inside your engine. Removing the dirt from the engine is a completely
safe way to prevent the dirt from harming your engine. Attempting to
store the dirt in your oil and filter does not always work as
effectively. By simply complicating the process you have increased the
chance that it will fail.

That said there really is no need to try to make your engine last 500K
miles. There are very few people willing to do what it takes to make the
rest of the car last anywhere near that long. If you use any approved
oil and filter and change at the recommended intervals there is very
little chance that the engine will crap out due to a lubricant problem
before the rest of the car is shot.

-jim

 

[bugalugs]

Well I didn't know much about amsoil but something smelled very fishy in
your story so a quick trip to their web site at amsoil.com and and look
at their 5w30 oil and it claims to have API certification. It also has
ILSAC 4 certification. Then i took a trip to the API webpage and sure
enough Amsoil Inc. is listed in their licensee directory.

So where are you getting your misinformation?



Except that is complete bullshit that you created by pulling it out of
your clueless ass. I have tested the anti-drainback valves on Fram
filters and they do not fail as the mythology claims they do. I have
never heard of any of the internet story tellers who have actually ever
tested the valve on a single filter. Not one person that is passing on
this folklore has checked one single valve.

I have checked them on filters after they were used using the dirty oil
and have never found one that didn't work. The people who claim they are
likely to leak don't have a clue. They are just idiots. If you cut the
filter open, then the valve as well as the rest of the filter will no
longer function properly. The very definition of a retard is someone who
cuts a filter open to see if the anti drain back valve works.

That statement, read in conjunction with the first sentence of that
paragraph says it all....

 

[Vic Smith]

You see the same kind of claims by corporations that are as clueless as
Jim. Just look at the Amsoil warranty claims. Even though there are
specific reasons why most Amsoil products cannot be API certified, and
these reasons can have negative effects you get the song and dance about
how no one has ever shown that a failure was related to the oil, as if
that constitutes proof of anything.

Premature engine failure, of engines already out of warranty, are the
key problem with using inferior quality filters. The engine fails at
150K miles rather than 300K miles because of a faulty anti-drainback
valve and there's no teardown of the engine to figure out why it failed.

Pure voodoo there.
Talk about espousing a premise that can't be proved.

--Vic

 

[SMS]

Talk about espousing a premise that can't be proved.

You need to look at the big picture, and what causes engine failures.
Lack of lubrication at start-up is a big factor in an engine not lasting
several hundred thousand miles, and the anti-drainback valve is a key
factor.

It's a real cop out for these companies to use "well no one has ever had
a failure under warranty so our products must be wonderful" premise.

For Amsoil, it's not the engine that is affected by their non-API
certified oils, it's the catalytic converter. They can't get API
certification because the level of ZDDP is too high. This is why they
reluctantly began marketing their XL-7500 line, then they cheapened it
by making it with non-synthetic base stock, but at least it has a level
of ZDDP low enough to be API certified.

The problems with Fram filters go far beyond the few catastrophic
failures you read about, it's the long term effect of using them that
you have to be concerned about.

Fram is surviving on good marketing and good distribution. You get
poorer filtering (with pretty low surface area) and poorer construction.
Since the surface area is less than that of good filters you're more
likely to have the bypass valve open. Of course this is just on the
lowest cost Fram filters. Some of their higher grade products are fine.

 

[Ed White]

Except that is complete bullshit that you created by pulling it out of
your clueless ass. I have tested the anti-drainback valves on Fram
filters and they do not fail as the mythology claims they do. I have
never heard of any of the internet story tellers who have actually ever
tested the valve on a single filter. Not one person that is passing on
this folklore has checked one single valve.

How are you checking them?

Here is what happened to me...

1997 Ford Expedition 5.4L V8. Cold morning (at least for NC). Started
truck and got a horrible racket for a few seconds (seemed longer).
Scared the crap out of me. I checked with a mechanic I trust and he
told me that was a sign of a leakig anti-drain back valve. The Ford
5.4L engine uses oil pressure to tension the chains. If the anti-drain
back valve leaks, the oil will leak back out of the system. On a cold
morning this can extend the lenght of time it takes for oil pressure
to build up and tension the chains. Loose chains rattle. The mechanic
told me it was extremely important to use a filter with a silicone
anti-drain back valve like the Motorcraft FL820S. I researched it
further and it found that the commonly used nitrile anti-drain back
valves do sometimes have problems with sealing. This is the type of
anti-drain back valve in the Extra Guard Fram filter. Turns out in my
case that was the type of filter on the truck when I had the problem.
From then on I only used FL820S filters on that truck and never had
the problem reoccur. To be fair, Fram does include silicone anti-drain
back valves on their more expensive filters (like the Tough Guard).

        I have checked them on filters after they were used usingthe dirty oil
and have never found one that didn't work. The people who claim they are
likely to leak don't have a clue. They are just idiots. If you cut the
filter open, then the valve as well as the rest of the filter will no
longer function properly. The very definition of a retard is someone who
cuts a filter open to see if the anti drain back valve works.

If you cut open the filter carefully and the anti-drain back valve is
hard and/or deformed I think you can decide it is a poor design. From
what I have seen the only difference between the Extra Guard and Tough
Guard anti-drain back valve is the material (design/dimensions are
identical). If nitrile is just as good as silicone, why would Fram
note that as a reason that the Tought Guard filter is better and cost
twice as much? For some engines, the anti-drain back valve is not
particularly important. For others, it can be very important.

Ed

 

[Vic Smith]

How are you checking them?

Here is what happened to me...

1997 Ford Expedition 5.4L V8. Cold morning (at least for NC). Started
truck and got a horrible racket for a few seconds (seemed longer).
Scared the crap out of me. I checked with a mechanic I trust and he
told me that was a sign of a leakig anti-drain back valve. The Ford
5.4L engine uses oil pressure to tension the chains. If the anti-drain
back valve leaks, the oil will leak back out of the system. On a cold
morning this can extend the lenght of time it takes for oil pressure
to build up and tension the chains. Loose chains rattle. The mechanic
told me it was extremely important to use a filter with a silicone
anti-drain back valve like the Motorcraft FL820S. I researched it
further and it found that the commonly used nitrile anti-drain back
valves do sometimes have problems with sealing. This is the type of
anti-drain back valve in the Extra Guard Fram filter. Turns out in my
case that was the type of filter on the truck when I had the problem.
From then on I only used FL820S filters on that truck and never had
the problem reoccur. To be fair, Fram does include silicone anti-drain
back valves on their more expensive filters (like the Tough Guard).

You change the filter yourself?
How's the filter set on the 5.4? Horizontal, or somewhat bottom down?
Do you fill the new filter with oil?
If so, how much is retained while putting the filter on?
Do you get the clatter on the start up after an oil change?
Think about it.
You should. Every time.
Unless that clatter had absolutely nothing to do with the filter.

--Vic

 

[Vic Smith]

You need to look at the big picture, and what causes engine failures.
Lack of lubrication at start-up is a big factor in an engine not lasting
several hundred thousand miles, and the anti-drainback valve is a key
factor.

All I've seen about that is anecdotes.
Never heard a noise on my cars after an oil change, beyond lifters,
which always bleed down on shut off anyway, and have nothing to do
with the filter. And I put filters on dry except oiling the gasket.
Not saying anti-drainback isn't a factor with some engines, just not
with any I've had.
All the filters have tipped downwards and only a small percentage of
the oil could drain back anyway.
One cold winter start is equal to probably 500 times any of this
so-called anti-drainback bullshit - on my cars.
Better make sure you use the right winter oil.
Instead of worrying about filter myths.
Of course I don't use Fram - sometimes superstition works out.
Why take a chance? I don't walk under ladders either.

(Amsoil stuff snipped. Who uses Amsoil? That's crazy.)

The problems with Fram filters go far beyond the few catastrophic
failures you read about, it's the long term effect of using them that
you have to be concerned about.

Fram is surviving on good marketing and good distribution. You get
poorer filtering (with pretty low surface area) and poorer construction.
Since the surface area is less than that of good filters you're more
likely to have the bypass valve open. Of course this is just on the
lowest cost Fram filters. Some of their higher grade products are fine.

If you can't prove it, it's no better than voodoo.
Anyway, maybe the AC/Delcos, Purulators, etc I use are no better than
the Frams. Just nobody is spreading myths about them.
Hell if I know. And you don't either, unless you can cite a
scientific and peer-reviewed study of current oil filters.

--Vic

 

[jim]

You need to look at the big picture, and what causes engine failures.
Lack of lubrication at start-up is a big factor in an engine not lasting
several hundred thousand miles, and the anti-drainback valve is a key
factor.

It's a real cop out for these companies to use "well no one has ever had
a failure under warranty so our products must be wonderful" premise.

I don't know what you mean by "these companies" but if the topic is
still Fram, they meet the engine maker's specifications for each type of
filter they make. That includes a working anti-drain back valve. SAE
testing is credible evidence. Somebody cutting open a filter and
inspecting the contents is not believable evidence.

For Amsoil, it's not the engine that is affected by their non-API
certified oils, it's the catalytic converter. They can't get API
certification because the level of ZDDP is too high. This is why they
reluctantly began marketing their XL-7500 line, then they cheapened it
by making it with non-synthetic base stock, but at least it has a level
of ZDDP low enough to be API certified.

You first made up a story about a company not having API certification.
When that story turned out to be false you seemed to be trying to turn
it into something else. I don't know anything about the Amsoil company
other than they sell oil.

The problems with Fram filters go far beyond the few catastrophic
failures you read about, it's the long term effect of using them that
you have to be concerned about.

All the real evidence suggests the problems are mostly all in your head.
I suspect those ideas got into your head from reading internet
mythology.

Fram is surviving on good marketing and good distribution.

And would this be knowledge you have acquired from internet folklore?
From what I have read most of the filters that are put on car engines
in the US today are Frams.

You get
poorer filtering (with pretty low surface area) and poorer construction.

That is not what a company I have done some work for tells me. They make
oil filter housings for both engine and hydraulic applications. They
recommend Fram filters to their customers because they say that their
testing show it does the best job of keeping oil clean. They rely on
testing and not rumors like you do.

Since the surface area is less than that of good filters you're more
likely to have the bypass valve open. Of course this is just on the
lowest cost Fram filters. Some of their higher grade products are fine.

Like you have the slightest clue. The main reason they make the more
expensive versions is probably because idiots like you are willing pay
more for nothing.

-jim

 

[clare]

Well I didn't know much about amsoil but something smelled very fishy in
your story so a quick trip to their web site at amsoil.com and and look
at their 5w30 oil and it claims to have API certification. It also has
ILSAC 4 certification. Then i took a trip to the API webpage and sure
enough Amsoil Inc. is listed in their licensee directory.

So where are you getting your misinformation?



Except that is complete bullshit that you created by pulling it out of
your clueless ass. I have tested the anti-drainback valves on Fram
filters and they do not fail as the mythology claims they do. I have
never heard of any of the internet story tellers who have actually ever
tested the valve on a single filter. Not one person that is passing on
this folklore has checked one single valve.

I have checked them on filters after they were used using the dirty oil
and have never found one that didn't work. The people who claim they are
likely to leak don't have a clue. They are just idiots. If you cut the
filter open, then the valve as well as the rest of the filter will no
longer function properly. The very definition of a retard is someone who
cuts a filter open to see if the anti drain back valve works.

If you want your engine to last 500K miles just buy the cheapest oil and
filter and change the oil every 3000 miles. If you are really concerned
about keeping dirt from harming your engine it makes very little sense
to concoct an elaborate and expensive scheme for storing dirt inside
your engines lubricating system. That is not a fail safe method of
dealing with engine dirt. It makes much more sense to let your
neighborhood recycling center take the dirt rather than trying to store
it inside your engine. Removing the dirt from the engine is a completely
safe way to prevent the dirt from harming your engine. Attempting to
store the dirt in your oil and filter does not always work as
effectively. By simply complicating the process you have increased the
chance that it will fail.

Changing oil and filter at 3000 mile intervals addresses the dirt and
oil quality problems, but does NOT address the dry-start / noisy
valves on startup issues that faulty anti-drainback valves can cause.

Might not make the engine fail within the normal lifespan of the
vehicle, but nobody who really cares about their car wants it rattling
and clattering every time it starts up or they'd all drive deisels.

And vehicles with timing chains and hydraulic tensioners -
particularly those with LONG chains like the old 2.6 Mitsubishi, eat
timing chains and tensioners early in their life if they don't get
adequate oil pressure very quickly on startup - EVERY TIME.

 

[clare]

Well I didn't know much about amsoil but something smelled very fishy in
your story so a quick trip to their web site at amsoil.com and and look
at their 5w30 oil and it claims to have API certification. It also has
ILSAC 4 certification. Then i took a trip to the API webpage and sure
enough Amsoil Inc. is listed in their licensee directory.

So where are you getting your misinformation?

I believe they now have at least one line of oil that carries the API
certification, but up 'till about 2 years ago NONE of their oils met
the standard, or at least nione were certified.
In the past, their oils did NOT meet spec, and today most still do
not.

Except that is complete bullshit that you created by pulling it out of
your clueless ass. I have tested the anti-drainback valves on Fram
filters and they do not fail as the mythology claims they do. I have
never heard of any of the internet story tellers who have actually ever
tested the valve on a single filter. Not one person that is passing on
this folklore has checked one single valve.


I have checked them on filters after they were used using the dirty oil
and have never found one that didn't work. The people who claim they are
likely to leak don't have a clue. They are just idiots. If you cut the
filter open, then the valve as well as the rest of the filter will no
longer function properly. The very definition of a retard is someone who
cuts a filter open to see if the anti drain back valve works.

Now you are tha great test engineer. WOW!!!!
I've been a mechanic since 1969, licenced since 1971, and have
experienced obvious anti-drainback valve failure on numerous
customer's vehicles. Many, although not all were Fram. I don't need to
cut a filter apart or test it off the vehicle to know when one has
failed (although I've likely changed many defective filters that I did
NOT know were defective).

When an engine comes in clattering on startup and goes out quiet after
an oil filter change, it's OBVIOUS the drainback balve is leaking.

 

[jim]

Changing oil and filter at 3000 mile intervals addresses the dirt and
oil quality problems, but does NOT address the dry-start / noisy
valves on startup issues that faulty anti-drainback valves can cause.

Well yes it actually does. In my experience just about the only thing
that will ever cause a filter to fail to work properly in any way is
excessive dirt in the engine. Excessive grit and dirt in the oil will
cause things like anti-drain back valves and bypass valves to fail to
seal properly. Gum and varnish will cause valves like the pressure
regulator or bypass valve to stick. When those valves fail then you have
oil pressure problems. And of course a very dirty engine can plug the
filter media.

An excessively dirty engine can be the cause of a malfunction for any
brand oil filter. I'm not particularly interested in which filter fails
first under those conditions. Instead of fretting over that question it
is a much more intelligent strategy to just keep the engine in a
condition so that no filter can fail.

Might not make the engine fail within the normal lifespan of the
vehicle, but nobody who really cares about their car wants it rattling
and clattering every time it starts up or they'd all drive deisels.

Yeah that is definitely correct - nobody wants a rattling and clattering
when the engine starts. Fram is the #1 selling filter. Fram oil filters
are on more engines than any other oil filter brand. One thing that
tells me is that people are using them because they are not having the
problems you say they will.

-jim

 

[jim]

cut a filter apart or test it off the vehicle to know when one has
failed (although I've likely changed many defective filters that I did
NOT know were defective).

I never needed to check a valve. I only did it in recent years because I
was hearing so many liars claiming they didn't work. I haven't found one
that doesn't. I don't get any start up clatter with a fram filter even
when the car sits for weeks without running.

The only reason the drain back valve will fail is if excessive amount of
dirt is holding it open. If the car has had good care that won't ever
happen.

When an engine comes in clattering on startup and goes out quiet after
an oil filter change, it's OBVIOUS the drainback balve is leaking.

That would seem obvious only to the superstitious person. If the engine
has a purolator filter and clatters on cold starts and you change the
oil and put on a Fram filter - that would have fix the problem too.
Getting the dirty oil out of the engine is what fixed the problem. Your
superstitious beliefs have blinded you.

 

[clare]

You change the filter yourself?
How's the filter set on the 5.4? Horizontal, or somewhat bottom down?
Do you fill the new filter with oil?
If so, how much is retained while putting the filter on?
Do you get the clatter on the start up after an oil change?
Think about it.
You should. Every time.
Unless that clatter had absolutely nothing to do with the filter.

--Vic

You do and it does. That's why the RECOMMENDED method is to pull the
ECU fuse and crank 'till you get oil pressure before starting.

 

[SMS]

(e-mail address removed) wrote:

Changing oil and filter at 3000 mile intervals addresses the dirt and
oil quality problems,

LOL, as does changing them at 5000 miles. All the experts agree that
there is absolutely zero benefit to 3000 mile oil changes versus 5000
mile oil changes. There's been extensive studies done with oil analysis
at different mileages, and even engine teardowns to measure wear. No
benefit to 3000 mile changes--zilch. It's throwing money away to do too
frequent oil changes. It's called "recreational oil changing" and it's
done by newbies that lack any understanding about engines and oil.

And vehicles with timing chains and hydraulic tensioners -
particularly those with LONG chains like the old 2.6 Mitsubishi, eat
timing chains and tensioners early in their life if they don't get
adequate oil pressure very quickly on startup - EVERY TIME.

That's why so many engines went to belts. A short timing chain works
well and lasts a long time. A long chain is less reliable than a long
belt that's changed periodically. The problem is that you don't change a
chain and tensioner as part of routine maintenance.

 

[SMS]

I believe they now have at least one line of oil that carries the API
certification, but up 'till about 2 years ago NONE of their oils met
the standard, or at least nione were certified.
In the past, their oils did NOT meet spec, and today most still do
not.

This is correct. They came under a lot of pressure for the lack of API
certification, and they came up with some fantastic excuses about it
until one employee accidentally leaked the real reason for the lack of
certification.

Had Amsoil simply come forward back when everyone was talking about this
and explained the reasons, they would have come out of the whole thing
well. Instead they made up a bunch of excuses about the cost of
certification, the fear that someone would steal their formula, etc.

In reality the non-API Amsoil products are fine for vehicles without
catalytic converters, and even on vehicles with catalytic converters the
worst that could happen is a slightly shorter life of the converter. The
high levels of ZDDP are a good thing, other than the fact the the zinc
poisons the catalytic converter.

To address the warranty concerns of customers, Amsoil came out with one
product line that is API approved. It's an oil similar to Mobil 1, an
oil that can legally be called a synthetic in the U.S. (but not in
Europe) but that is derived from petroleum base stock.

 

[jim]

(e-mail address removed) wrote:



LOL, as does changing them at 5000 miles. All the experts agree that
there is absolutely zero benefit to 3000 mile oil changes versus 5000
mile oil changes.

Zero benefit doesn't mean zero effect. Your engine will last just as
long if you change at 5000, but it won't be as clean on the inside when
it goes to the bone yard. And yes there probably is no benefit to
delivering a clean engine to the wrecking yard.

There's been extensive studies done with oil analysis
at different mileages, and even engine teardowns to measure wear. No
benefit to 3000 mile changes--zilch. It's throwing money away to do too
frequent oil changes. It's called "recreational oil changing" and it's
done by newbies that lack any understanding about engines and oil.

If you weren't so retarded you would remember that you were the one that
was worried about engine damage due to inadequate lubrication. I'm not
the one who is worried. The smartest thing to do to alleviate your
worries is to change the oil more often.

The fact is if you use the cheapest oil and cheapest filter and follow
the engine makers recommendations for change intervals your chances of
having the engine die due to inadequate lubrication before the rest of
the car dies is close to zero.

Most of the stories I have read from Internet Fram bashers indicate to
me that these idiots have either too much dirt in their engines or they
have a mechanical problem (like a weak oil pump, or that the equipment
that controls oil pressure is malfunctioning, or they have an air leak
between the oil pump and the oil sump, or some other mechanical
problem).

These people usually resort to Voodoo to solve their problems. Bashing
an oil filter is not going to fix your car. And if the problem is an
overload of dirt in the engine, then buying expensive oil and filter
that advertises that it does a better job of storing the dirt inside
the engine is a really extremely dumb solution. A much safer and more
reliable solution is to get rid of the dirt.

-jim

 

[hls]

So? Running with no oil pressure for >10 sec at a time is way more
detrimental to the life of an engine than <10 micron particles.
nate

Can you cite a source for this, Nate?

 

[hls]

And remember, removing particles below a certain size is not
important. What is important is removing as many as possible of
particles that can damage your engine. >
Ed

With no disrespect, can you cite a source for this statement?

 

[hls]

I can't imagine why this would be useful unless there was a problem
with the oil pressure relief valve.

Ed

Sometimes the OPRV loses tension and the oil pressure drops. I have
seen Ford mechanics pull out the spring, stretch it,and reinstall on the
old 390/428 engines. That would often bring the oil pressure back up
to spec.

 

[hls]

I just don't buy Fram filters and I don't have a problem.

The fact that you continue to obfuscate and berate those that choose such
a simple fix is beyond me.

nate

That is why I stopped buying them too. As I repeat, I never had a problem
with them of any kind, but swimming upstream for no reason is not
productive.