Who was it who mentioned Fram oil filters and dropping oil pressure?

[hls]

Doesn't this seem self evident? I didn't specify a particualr "certain"
size, so the statement could be interperted to mean particles somewhere
between the size of an individual atoms and the size of the earth. Don't
you agree that there are particles so small that they won't damage your
engine?

I have no idea, Ed. These statements have been made as fact by others
than you, but the apparent obvious will come back to bite you in the ass.
I want to see some data....scientific significant data.

 

[hls]

In any case, a car on the road, driven under diverse weather
conditions, and varying warm-up and acceleration modes, is best left
to the owners own judgement regarding when to change the oil.
My opinion.

--Vic

And I fully agree.. It is the owner/driver, at the end of the day, who has
to
assume the responsibility for his maintenance diligency. (Except when
someone dogs one unmercifully and dumps it on an unsuspecting used car
buyer.)

 

[hls]

And I still dont consider it throwing money away. Using Mobil 1 and
changing
every 3500-5000 would be throwing money away.

I just changed oil and filter on both cars today and reset the electronics.
Total time 55
minutes.

Bosch filter plus 5 quarts of Valvoline 5W30 was $19.63, for the Solara.
Napa Gold filter and 6 quarts 4 oz of the same oil was $4.00 more.

Cheap enough, and I am good to go for about another 3 months on each car.

 

[jim]

I have no idea, Ed. These statements have been made as fact by others
than you, but the apparent obvious will come back to bite you in the ass.
I want to see some data....scientific significant data.

You could start dropping hints that this is what you want for Xmas:

http://www.gmn-gmbh.net/GMN_Hatzfeld/Englisch/MultiPass.html

 

[Hachiroku $B%O%A%m%/(B]

Most mechanics have working eyeballs. Do you think these engines could use
more frequent oil changes?

http://delanytowing.com/candiscorner/media/blogs/a/oil-sludge.jpg

I'd wait for an analysis...

 

[hls]

You could start dropping hints that this is what you want for Xmas:

http://www.gmn-gmbh.net/GMN_Hatzfeld/Englisch/MultiPass.html

Yeah, my sweetie would love to put that under our tree ;>)

There are some good engine test labs here in Texas, and I have gone onto
some of their sites, also SAE, but in most cases when there appears to be
data, there is first a $$ charge.

I posted earlier that I just changed my Solara oil and filter today, total
expense $19.63. If I paid $20.00 for an oil analysis, that
would be money rather poorly spent, woundnt it.....

 

[hls]

Here is a link to the Fram FAQ, which gives a minute bit of information on
how
the filters are tested and certified....Still no hard data, but worth an
insomniac's
second glance:
http://www.fram.com/carcare/faq.php#q7

 

[Ashton Crusher]

As I have said earlier, the book says 5000, less under severe conditions.
The two different dealerships I have bought from recommend 3500. It is
a small price to pay,and I am content with it.

Hmm, a place that makes money by selling parts and service recommends
short oil change intervals.... how surprising.

 

[hls]

Hmm, a place that makes money by selling parts and service recommends
short oil change intervals.... how surprising.

As long as I get the change in under 5000k, I have a paper trail to support
my warranty, and that is important to me. Although, on the Avalon, we have
now had it nearly three years and there has been nothing falling off, no
rattles,
absolutely nothing to complain about. The warranty on this one goes 7/70.

 

[C. E. White]

I am sure these studies must exist, on filters, oil change intervals,
effect of particulates of different size distributions in the oil, etc
etc, nbut I have ever seen them. (And I HAVE looked for them)

Go to www.sae.org and search for papers on the subject.

The following was extracted from 981443 - Extended Oil Drain Intervals -
Conservation of
Resources or Reduction of Engine Life (Part II)

"....The authors jointly presented a paper at the February 1995 SAE Congress
(1). The main conclusion of the experience up to that time was:

"Used oil analysis of test cars in the European Market demonstrated that
engine oils can be already exhausted at 6,000 km (» 3,700 miles) or could
last up to 30,000 km (» 18,650 miles), depending on quality of the oil and
use of the car....

"4. CONCLUSION

"For a considerable time it has been the objective for scientists and
engineers around the world to optimise the use of resources on the one hand
and on the other hand to reduce operational costs for cars by defining the
ideal ODI. So far the best tools for the optimal definition of the ODI [Oil
Drain Interval] are relatively simple engine calculation systems based on
mileage, number of starts and average oil temperature.

"But also the oil quality has a major influence on the ODI. Since there is a
wide variety of lubricants with different performance levels available in
the market, it is necessary to develop a more intelligent system to include
oil quality in the calculation.

"An important task is to detect the correct engine oil performance level.
High performance engine oils are usually blended with extra high refined or
synthetic base stocks at higher cost. But they have a range of benefits,
especially reduced friction properties to improve fuel economy and
emissions, reduced oil consumption and better wear protection properties. If
this is also the case after several thousand miles of use, a bonus has to be
included by calculating
the ODI. On the other hand the ODI has to be shortened if a poor oil quality
is used.

"But the ODI is not only heavily influenced by the quality of the engine
oil, but also by the design and the use of the engine which are major
influencing factors. Therefore ideally we have to develop on-board
monitoring systems to detect the condition of the engine oil during its use.
Sensors able to do so are under development, but not yet available for
production.

"Combining the data stored in the engine management systems with "in situ"
conductivity measurements is a step forward towards optimised ODI's. The
experience and the high number of tests accumulated within the cooperation
of both companies over several years resulted in the new ASSYST service
system. With this system the car owners will benefit from an optimal mileage
calculated up to the next oil change. But there will also be a cost benefit
since the customer is able to select the most appropriate oil quality level
(to benefit from high performance oils) and increase the lifetime of his
car...."

 

[hls]

I am sure these studies must exist, on filters, oil change intervals,
effect of particulates of different size distributions in the oil, etc
etc, nbut I have ever seen them. (And I HAVE looked for them)

Go to www.sae.org and search for papers on the subject.

The following was extracted from 981443 - Extended Oil Drain Intervals -
Conservation of
Resources or Reduction of Engine Life (Part II)

"....The authors jointly presented a paper at the February 1995 SAE
Congress (1). The main conclusion of the experience up to that time was:

"Used oil analysis of test cars in the European Market demonstrated that
engine oils can be already exhausted at 6,000 km (» 3,700 miles) or could
last up to 30,000 km (» 18,650 miles), depending on quality of the oil and
use of the car....

"4. CONCLUSION

"For a considerable time it has been the objective for scientists and
engineers around the world to optimise the use of resources on the one
hand and on the other hand to reduce operational costs for cars by
defining the ideal ODI. So far the best tools for the optimal definition
of the ODI [Oil Drain Interval] are relatively simple engine calculation
systems based on mileage, number of starts and average oil temperature.

"But also the oil quality has a major influence on the ODI. Since there is
a wide variety of lubricants with different performance levels available
in the market, it is necessary to develop a more intelligent system to
include oil quality in the calculation.

"An important task is to detect the correct engine oil performance level.
High performance engine oils are usually blended with extra high refined
or synthetic base stocks at higher cost. But they have a range of
benefits, especially reduced friction properties to improve fuel economy
and emissions, reduced oil consumption and better wear protection
properties. If this is also the case after several thousand miles of use,
a bonus has to be included by calculating
the ODI. On the other hand the ODI has to be shortened if a poor oil
quality is used.

"But the ODI is not only heavily influenced by the quality of the engine
oil, but also by the design and the use of the engine which are major
influencing factors. Therefore ideally we have to develop on-board
monitoring systems to detect the condition of the engine oil during its
use. Sensors able to do so are under development, but not yet available
for production.

"Combining the data stored in the engine management systems with "in situ"
conductivity measurements is a step forward towards optimised ODI's. The
experience and the high number of tests accumulated within the cooperation
of both companies over several years resulted in the new ASSYST service
system. With this system the car owners will benefit from an optimal
mileage calculated up to the next oil change. But there will also be a
cost benefit since the customer is able to select the most appropriate oil
quality level (to benefit from high performance oils) and increase the
lifetime of his car...."

Thanks, C.E.
By the way, I was googling yesterday, looking for a Timken lubricity tester,
and
found a link to a video where this (somewhat elementary) took was being used
to evaluate several motor oil lubricants and additives. It is worth a quick
look.
I will try to find it and post it on here.

 

[hls]

news:(e-mail address removed)...

Here is that link.. Interesting, but not definitive.

 

[hls]

Go to www.sae.org and search for papers on the subject.

I have been there before, but at $12 per paper, I didnt go any further.

 

[nobody >]

Here is that link.. Interesting, but not definitive.

Especially when you do a little research on the "winner" of that test,
Motor Latte.

http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=29267
http://wwsnforums.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=99

 

[hls]

Especially when you do a little research on the "winner" of that test,
Motor Latte.

http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=29267
http://wwsnforums.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=99

You can find a number of items which will give spectacular test numbers
on this kind of lubricity unit. Whether they do anything at all inside an
engine, and whether they promote longer and more trouble free engine
life is quite another thing.

I always harp on wanting to see hard data. For something to be of
value and interest, it needs to be tested under relevant protocols, over
a variety of conditions, and with enough population in the test set
to assure that the data is significant.

 

[hls]

Ah, I didn't realize that, but it all makes sense now as both seem to
equally clueless, and now both are equally in the kill file.

I have to update my kill file on Mike Hunter frequently. He trolls with
unbaited hooks.

 

[hls]

Bottom line, avoid these additives at all costs. I was actually amazed to
see that they are still on the market at all after all the problems they
had with the FTC. I guess it proves the old adage, "it's morally wrong to
allow a sucker to keep his money."

The feds didnt say that the product didnt work. They said that Slick 50 was
making claims they they could not substantiate. Not false claims, but
unsubstantiated
claims. There IS a difference.

I have seen no hard data that shows conclusively that Slick 50 does anything
worthwhile.

 

[jim]

The feds didnt say that the product didnt work. They said that Slick 50 was
making claims they they could not substantiate. Not false claims, but
unsubstantiated
claims. There IS a difference.

I have seen no hard data that shows conclusively that Slick 50 does anything
worthwhile.

That is not the way I heard it. All the testing that I have read does
show that slick 50 reduces engine friction. That means you can get
better gas mileage (something like 3% better IIRC). The problem is that
all the long term testing done on slick 50 also showed that it reduces
engine life. That is a paradox that is not completely understood (there
are plenty of theories). Some of the testing showed that using slick 50
can shorten the life of an engine by as much as half.
The advertising for slick 50 either implied or directly stated that
the reduced friction would result in less wear and therefore longer
engine life, but that conclusion was a pure leap of faith that wasn't
ever supported by any evidence.

-jim

 

[Heron McKeister]

That is not the way I heard it. All the testing that I have read does
show that slick 50 reduces engine friction. That means you can get
better gas mileage (something like 3% better IIRC). The problem is that
all the long term testing done on slick 50 also showed that it reduces
engine life. That is a paradox that is not completely understood (there
are plenty of theories). Some of the testing showed that using slick 50
can shorten the life of an engine by as much as half.
The advertising for slick 50 either implied or directly stated that
the reduced friction would result in less wear and therefore longer
engine life, but that conclusion was a pure leap of faith that wasn't
ever supported by any evidence.

-jim

http://www.skepdic.com/slick50.html
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/07/slick.shtm

 

[hls]

That is not the way I heard it. All the testing that I have read does
show that slick 50 reduces engine friction.

I dont doubt that it might show some friction reduction. It WILL burnish
into metal
surfaces, of that I am positive. But I have seen no data at this point that
would
convince me that it is either a good or a bad product.