I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

[Bill Sornson]

Her husband was going to die anyway. Those animals shooting at rescue
choppers tells me theyre not worth saving. If I were president I'd do
nothing in in a couple months the population would be reduced then
rebuild a nicer city.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Buttpacker in all his (imagined) glory.

(Dolt can't even quote.)

BS

 

[Bob the Cow]

I have not heard one person say anything bad about someone for taking food
or water - yes, anyone WOULD do that - it's called survival and is
perfectly
understandable and I don't think it can even be called "looting."

No. I call that "foraging". One must do what one must do to survive. I'm
sure that in small groups, the able-bodied helped to procure the necessities
for those who couldn't.

It's too bad that the looting, for example, of TV and electronics stores
took place, but that has taken place during every disaster, including the
riots of the 60s and the blackout of the Northeast. If it bleeds, it leads,
so this looting and the criminality that followed the breakdown of
civilization as a result of the disaster is what makes front-page news.
Unable to see moral distinctions, our society increasingly lumps the
opportunistic looters in with the subsistence foragers, criminalizing the
latter and failing to hold the former accountable for their real crimes.

 

[Jasper Janssen]

Intereresting. Do they get hurricanes in North Atlantic?
Do their bad storms get storm surges equivalent to 20-30 feet?
Seriously curious.

Yes, the North Atlantic gets hurricanes, very rarely. In the '53 storm,
the storm surge was pretty bad, got to over 3 metres (10 feet). The wind
direction was exactly right so the storm surge was as high as it could,
and it combined with a spring high tide to get to well over 4.5 metres
above sea level (15 feet) and to rupture many of the dikes in Zeeland,
which had been badly maintained and -- since it's a river delta area built
on lots of little islands -- there was a fuckload of dikes to breach, too.
The 1953 "water emergency disaster" (loose translation of
"Watersnoodramp", which is the name for the event here) led directly to
the construction of the Delta Works, which basically closed off all the
various outlets of that river delta with small or large closed or
semi-open dams.

Ended with the Nieuwe Waterweg dam, which is one of the most impressive
pieces of engineering I've seen. Because it's the primary access road to
Rotterdam (largest port in the world), you can for obvious reasons not
close it off to shipping. So we have two huge metal caissons that can be
floated out into the canal (accessible to the largest oil tankers and
container ships, I believe) and sunk off to provide protection from storm
surges (you don't need absolute watertightness, you just don't want too
much sea at once getting in). They turn on arms the size of the Eiffel
Tower and pivot at the end on two giant ball joints, with a ten meter
diameter ball and weighing 680 tons just for the joint.

The only waterway still unprotected from the sea is the Westerschelde,
which is the access waterway to Belgium's only major port Antwerp, which
we couldn't reasonably close off. That one just has good dikes around it.

http://www.deltawerken.com/en/10.html?setlanguage=en is the official
Deltaworks website, and has a lot of information about both the floods and
the Works.


Jasper

 

[Jasper Janssen]

I have not heard one person say anything bad about someone for taking food
or water - yes, anyone WOULD do that - it's called survival and is perfectly
understandable and I don't think it can even be called "looting."

You've not been paying attention. It *is* looting and when the president
announces a zero-tolerance, shoot on sight policy, he means that too.

Jasper

 

[Jasper Janssen]

I see plenty of "poor" people driving cars. Some even have newer cars
than me until the car gets repoed. There is also a thing called foot
power. In two days most people can walk 15-20 miles with no problem to
escape harms way. Oh wait the governemt OWES them relief and aid. Why
should anyone be responsible for themselves and their families.

How exactly is 15-20 miles enough to escape harms way when a 150 mile wide
category 5 hurricane is bearing down on your coast line?

Jasper

 

[Jasper Janssen]

What? Depend on Amtrak for evacuation?
Shouldn't there be a little smiley after that?

The main reason Amtrak has such a bad reputation is that in the US,
passenger traffic takes second place to cargo traffic. So if the cargo
traffic is somehow delayed (say, they didn't get all their cargo on the
train in time), then subsequently the passenger trains have to wait for
that.

A hurricane train -- which can also do without all the administration of
checking tickets -- would be a lot better.

Jasper

 

[Bob the Cow]

Intereresting. Do they get hurricanes in North Atlantic?
Do their bad storms get storm surges equivalent to 20-30 feet?
Seriously curious.

Well, no, but you have to factor in the difficulty of hauling ass to
evacuate while wearing wooden shoes.

 

[Bob the Cow]

Her husband was going to die anyway. Those animals shooting at rescue
choppers tells me theyre not worth saving. If I were president I'd do
nothing in in a couple months the population would be reduced then
rebuild a nicer city.

If you were president, we'd all shoot ourselves.

 

[Kurt Ullman]

The 1953 "water emergency disaster" (loose translation of
"Watersnoodramp", which is the name for the event here) led directly to
the construction of the Delta Works, which basically closed off all the
various outlets of that river delta with small or large closed or
semi-open dams.

I suppose I should take some comfort in knowing that the US isn't
the only place that works to close the barn after the horse has
escaped....

Ended with the Nieuwe Waterweg dam, which is one of the most impressive
pieces of engineering I've seen. Because it's the primary access road to
Rotterdam (largest port in the world), you can for obvious reasons not
close it off to shipping. So we have two huge metal caissons that can be
floated out into the canal (accessible to the largest oil tankers and
container ships, I believe) and sunk off to provide protection from storm
surges (you don't need absolute watertightness, you just don't want too
much sea at once getting in). They turn on arms the size of the Eiffel
Tower and pivot at the end on two giant ball joints, with a ten meter
diameter ball and weighing 680 tons just for the joint.

They had a Cable TV documentary on that a few weeks on Discovery
or History or one of those. VERY impressive piece of engineering and
construction.

 

[Bill Sornson]

You've not been paying attention. It *is* looting and when the
president announces a zero-tolerance, shoot on sight policy, he means
that too.

That was Frank Rizzo. Philadelphia. 1968.

 

[Bob the Cow]

it combined with a spring high tide to get to well over 4.5 metres
above sea level (15 feet) and to rupture many of the dikes in Zeeland,
which had been badly maintained and -- since it's a river delta area built
on lots of little islands -- there was a fuckload of dikes to breach, too.

But remember, it was a metric fuckload, so it wasn't nearly as serious as it
sounds.

 

[Petal and Leif]

Intereresting. Do they get hurricanes in North Atlantic?
Do their bad storms get storm surges equivalent to 20-30 feet?
Seriously curious.

I am not sure about the north atlantic, but for the north sea, winds as
strong as what is called hurricane occur from time to time. Several oil and
gas installations are there, just like in the Golf of Mexico. Some of them
are normal sizes, some of them, like Troll, is among the most spectacular
constructions ever made. Take a look at it:
http://www.statoil.com/STATOILCOM/S...ang=en&artid=20E9A8E4744AAC85C1256FF60049DB1E

The north sea is pretty shallow, wich means the strong wind are creating
very big wawes. And the north sea is known to be among the ruffest places on
earth when it come to wawes.

The wind is not in a huge circle, with an center eye, like the hurricanes in
the caribbean. But the wind are as strong as some of those.


LA

 

[Jasper Janssen]

Well, no, but you have to factor in the difficulty of hauling ass to
evacuate while wearing wooden shoes.

You think you're joking, but Zeeland 1953 was still largely rural (but the
wooden shoes are more the equivalent of boots -- you put 'em on to go work
the land, not to go to church), and there were no permanent connections to
dry land at all. Just ferries.

Not to mention that there was no large scale evacuation in the first place
since there wasn't enough warning. The church bells tolled an hour or two
beforehand in many villages, and that was about it.

Jasper

 

[Jasper Janssen]

I suppose I should take some comfort in knowing that the US isn't
the only place that works to close the barn after the horse has
escaped....

Oh, not at all. That's a worldwide phenomenon, and I expect that when we
export ourselves to other planets it'll turn out to be a human phenomenon,
not just Earth-human.


Jasper

 

[nothermark]

Yeah, the oil and gas companies and the energy-sucking
suburbanites, which describes most Americans.


And a lot of folks who don't know their ass from a
goddamn hole in the ground, but who are just beginning
to get a rude awakening.

Robert

Be carefull what you whine about. If you are an urban dweller you
don't have water, food or power unless we send it to you. If you
aren't you are describing yourself and what a turkey you are.

 

[Never Enough Money]

Jaba, I agree with you. These folks thinkn they are entitled to
everything. You can see that in the footage of them with their shooping
carts of loot. I saw ne film clip of a guy knocking down a WalMart
door, big evil Walmart, who, I might add, was the first to offer money
and as of today has offered more than any other company.

Jeese Jackson and Al Sharpton should be encouraging the poor blacks to
maintain good principles instead of their destructive behaviour.
Instead, Al and Jesse will blame Bush. Hmmm. Kinda makes me want to
withhold my donation to the Red Cross.

As far as Bush cutting funding for such things as levees -- as one
poster said, the funding cuts were 2005. Besides, I believe that the
levee is a STATE expense not the responsibiliy of the federal
government. Blame the stae of Louisianna, not Bush.

 

[Kurt Ullman]

As far as Bush cutting funding for such things as levees -- as one
poster said, the funding cuts were 2005. Besides, I believe that the
levee is a STATE expense not the responsibiliy of the federal
government. Blame the stae of Louisianna, not Bush.

Comes under the jurisdiction of the Army Corp of Engineers because
it is a navigable waterway (or maybe just attached to it)

 

[Never Enough Money]

You got me there. I shoul d have said "I believe that the levee SHOULD
BE a state expense..."

 

[ThingMaker]

There were already federal programs in place paying for the building and
maintaining of the levees and pumps. These programs were cut by Bush and the
republican congress. 30% of New Orleans lives below the poverty level. There
was no state money to make up the difference and Bush had been warned for
years of this situation as not a possibility, but a certainty, because of
the lack of funds for upkeep on the levees. EVERY expert has said "we dodged
a bullet" after hurricane season ended in recent years, mainly because New
Orleans was lacking in hurricane preparedness funding.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-050831corps-story,1,23642
15.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Funding cuts led way to lesser levees
By Andrew Martin and and Andrew Zajac
Published August 31, 2005, Chicago Tribune

"WASHINGTON -- Despite continuous warnings that a catastrophic hurricane
could hit New Orleans, the Bush administration and Congress in recent years
have repeatedly cut funding for hurricane preparation and flood control.

The cuts have delayed construction of levees around the city and stymied an
ambitious project to improve drainage in New Orleans' neighborhoods.

For instance, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers requested $27 million for
this fiscal year to pay for hurricane protection projects around Lake
Pontchartrain. The Bush administration countered with $3.9 million, and
Congress eventually provided $5.7 million, according to figures provided by
the office of U.S. Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.).

Because of the budget cuts, which were caused in part by the rising costs of
the war in Iraq, the corps delayed seven contracts that included enlarging
the levees, according to corps documents... "

Also, from Flood-control funds short of requests
By Andrew Martin and Andrew Zajac
Published September 1, 2005 in the Chicago Tribune:

"Much of the devastation in New Orleans was caused by breaches in the
levees, which sent water from Lake Pontchartrain pouring into the city.
Since much of the city is below sea level, the levee walls acted like the
walls of a bowl that filled until as much as 80 percent of the city was
under water.

"I'm not saying it wouldn't still be flooded, but I do feel that if it had
been totally funded, there would be less flooding than you have, " said
Michael Parker, a former *Republican* Mississippi congressman who headed the
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers from October 2001 until March 2002, when he was
ousted after publicly criticizing a Bush administration proposal to cut the
corps' budget."


Sean

 

[Mark Hickey]

There were already federal programs in place paying for the building and
maintaining of the levees and pumps. These programs were cut by Bush and the
republican congress. 30% of New Orleans lives below the poverty level. There
was no state money to make up the difference and Bush had been warned for
years of this situation as not a possibility, but a certainty, because of
the lack of funds for upkeep on the levees. EVERY expert has said "we dodged
a bullet" after hurricane season ended in recent years, mainly because New
Orleans was lacking in hurricane preparedness funding.

The New Orleans system has NEVER been designed to withstand more than
a category 3 hurricane. There have been options on the table for
DECADES to upgrade the system to withstand a category 4-5 hurricane,
but NO ONE wanted to spend the money. Not New Orleans, not any of the
administrations who were in office at the time.

Yet somehow this becomes "Bush's fault"?

Either it was wise stewardship of resources for all those years, or it
was consistent underspending - but it didn't change in the last five
years.

Bottom line - if Bush HAD spent every dollar that he could have spent
without any budget cuts, the situation would have been exactly the
same today, and we would have thrown a bunch of tax dollars down the
drain.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame