I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

[Kurt Ullman]

The New Orleans system has NEVER been designed to withstand more than
a category 3 hurricane. There have been options on the table for
DECADES to upgrade the system to withstand a category 4-5 hurricane,
but NO ONE wanted to spend the money. Not New Orleans, not any of the
administrations who were in office at the time.

Actually there are some indications (that I haven't gotten
around to tracking down yet for myself, so we'll just stay with
indications) that the original plans were to build it withstand Cat
4+.

 

[Tanker]

You don't watch much news do you? The levies and the pumps are maintained by
the City of New Orleans and they operated by the ACE. Why do you think Nagin
isn't bitching about that? The funding was cut at the advice of the ACE and
the City. My Brother in law was at the meeting he is a NOLA resident and
lives not far from the 17th street Levie....God everyone needs to blame
Bush....why not point the finger where it belongs....NAGIN!!!


Tanker

 

[Tanker]

Actually the levies were rated for a 4 Thats why everyone was shocked when
they started to give a day later.....


Tanker

 

[Sir Topham Hatt]

How about using old Subaru's for the fill?

What is well known is that you have a city, that is between a lake and
the ocean, and is in a potential hurricane zone, and is below both the
ocean and lake water levels. This may be a dumb question, but didn't
anybody think that at some point this might cause a problem?

Perhaps the best solution is to knock everything down, add in the rubble
from surrounding areas (like Biloxi), then add clean fill until the
ground is about level with the top of the levee, then build a new city
on-top of the now raised ground level.

W

 

[ThingMaker]

Perhaps rather than watching TV news, do some reaserch:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/21af58dc-1b1c-11da-a117-00000e2511c8.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0509010170sep01,1,5853346
..story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

Flood-control Funds Short of Requests
By Andrew Martin and Andrew Zajac
Washington Bureau
Published September 1, 2005, Chicago Tribune

WASHINGTON -- Despite continuous warnings that a catastrophic hurricane
could hit New Orleans, the Bush administration and Congress in recent years
have repeatedly denied full funding for hurricane preparation and flood
control.

That has delayed construction of levees around the city and stymied an
ambitious project to improve drainage in New Orleans' neighborhoods.

For instance, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers requested $27 million for
this fiscal year to pay for hurricane-protection projects around Lake
Pontchartrain. The Bush administration countered with $3.9 million, and
Congress eventually provided $5.7 million, according to figures provided by
the office of U.S. Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.).

Because of the shortfalls, which were caused in part by the rising costs of
the war in Iraq, the corps delayed seven contracts that included enlarging
the levees, according to corps documents.

Much of the devastation in New Orleans was caused by breaches in the levees,
which sent water from Lake Pontchartrain pouring into the city. Since much
of the city is below sea level, the levee walls acted like the walls of a
bowl that filled until as much as 80 percent of the city was under water.

Sean

 

[Petal and Leif]

ThingMaker <(e-mail address removed)> wrote:

Bottom line - if Bush HAD spent every dollar that he could have spent
without any budget cuts, the situation would have been exactly the
same today, and we would have thrown a bunch of tax dollars down the
drain.

I belive he could have protected New Orleans dikes up to a category 5
hurricane, for the cost of a day or two`s operations in Iraq.

LA

 

[Bill Sornson]

I belive he could have protected New Orleans dikes up to a category 5
hurricane, for the cost of a day or two`s operations in Iraq.

If you believe that then I've got some LA marshland to sell you.

Oh, wait...

 

[Paul]

All those losers whining about "where's the government?", "We got
nothing" "they leaving us here to die" and such are starting to really
piss me off. Our society has created a whole population of people who
rely on the government for all needs- housing, food, medical care.
That are unable to fend for themselves in any way hurricane or not.
Now they must really be suffering, almost like a domestic pet that
suddenly finds itself living in the wild.
First of all you live in an area BELOW sea level-not smart. Then its an
area that is subject to hurricanes and storms. Then word of an
impending hurricane comes out and you do not stock up and prepare. Why?
Because you have no responsibility for your own life. The gov't has
always taken care of you even when you refused to stay in school and
get a job. They support you after popping out numerous out-of-wedlock
babies. They take care of you in prison when you refuse to follow
society's rules. Adversity is when the American Spirit rises to the
top. Unfortunately you still choose to take by looting and causing
further damage to your countrymen. I just had to rant.

The city of new orleans has an emergency evacutation plan. the dumb
mayor just never followed it and the dumb residents apparently think
they are smarter than the people telling them to get out. oh and the
evacauation plan calls for all city and school buses to be used for
evacuation of residents. if you are to blame anyone blame the mayor!!!!!!

Paul

 

[tr2267]

The New Orleans system has NEVER been designed to withstand more than

a category 3 hurricane. There have been options on the table for
DECADES to upgrade the system to withstand a category 4-5 hurricane,
but NO ONE wanted to spend the money. Not New Orleans, not any of the
administrations who were in office at the time.

Yet somehow this becomes "Bush's fault"?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/03/opinion/03dowd.html?incamp=article_popular

Ron Fournier of The Associated Press reported that the Army Corps of
Engineers asked for $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New
Orleans last year. The White House carved it to about $40 million. But
President Bush and Congress agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-filled highway
bill with 6,000 pet projects, including a $231 million bridge for a small,
uninhabited Alaskan island.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bottom line - if Bush HAD spent every dollar that he could have spent
without any budget cuts, the situation would have been exactly the
same today, and we would have thrown a bunch of tax dollars down the
drain.

Yes thanks to Bush the taxpayers saved $1 on preventive measures that
could well have made the critical difference for every $1000 of our
government tax dollars down the drain on hurricane related damage and for
every $5000 or so loss to the GNP and infrastructure. But more serious than
the tax money wasted are the thousands if not tens of thousands of American
lives wasted.

The idea that Bush did a good thing by not spending the $105 million is
preposterous since it represents about %0.0001 of the cost of the disaster
thru not only tax dollars but lost GNP and infrastructure. Let's have
a little common sense please.

 

[Rog']

To me, a major part of the "fault" lies at the desk of the FEMA
director. FEMA has long been the dumping ground of political
appointees. This one was fired as a the producer of a horse
show about five years ago, and until this week didn't know the
meaning of the phrase, "joint operations center." Golly, I have
to wonder who appointed that clown?

 

[Mark Hickey]

Yes thanks to Bush the taxpayers saved $1 on preventive measures that
could well have made the critical difference for every $1000 of our
government tax dollars down the drain on hurricane related damage and for
every $5000 or so loss to the GNP and infrastructure. But more serious than
the tax money wasted are the thousands if not tens of thousands of American
lives wasted.

The idea that Bush did a good thing by not spending the $105 million is
preposterous since it represents about %0.0001 of the cost of the disaster
thru not only tax dollars but lost GNP and infrastructure. Let's have
a little common sense please.

Yes, please - let's. There has been plenty of money spent on the NO
levee system, yet it would NOT have mattered had more been spent.
Even if the full amount requested every year for the last few years
had been spent - the same result would have occurred. The system was
not designed to withstand the amount of water Katrina brought into it.
Period. There have been proposals to upgrade the system to something
that WOULD withstand a category 5 storm, but no one (including plenty
of former presidents) ever made it happen (nor would it have been a
particularly good idea, from what I've read).

To truly believe that this disaster is GWB's fault is to be uninformed
or just naive. It's normal in our culture to want to blame someone
for everything that happens - but in this case, there's plenty of
blame to go around, and very little of it would logically land at
GWB's feet.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

 

[Kurt Ullman]

Yes, please - let's. There has been plenty of money spent on the NO
levee system, yet it would NOT have mattered had more been spent.
Even if the full amount requested every year for the last few years
had been spent - the same result would have occurred. The system was
not designed to withstand the amount of water Katrina brought into it.

Interestingly enough, I was talking to an oldster retired from
the Corp of Engineers. He says that their records show that the Corp
wanted to BUILD the things originally to withstand Cat 5.
In the land of unintended consequences, the system itself has
ended up actually adding to the problems. Since they divert the
river and thus the silt, the delta has been shrinking for many
years. This means less "front yard" so to speak to "soak up" the
storm surges.

 

[Lloyd Parsons]

Yes, please - let's. There has been plenty of money spent on the NO
levee system, yet it would NOT have mattered had more been spent.
Even if the full amount requested every year for the last few years
had been spent - the same result would have occurred. The system was
not designed to withstand the amount of water Katrina brought into it.
Period. There have been proposals to upgrade the system to something
that WOULD withstand a category 5 storm, but no one (including plenty
of former presidents) ever made it happen (nor would it have been a
particularly good idea, from what I've read).

To truly believe that this disaster is GWB's fault is to be uninformed
or just naive. It's normal in our culture to want to blame someone
for everything that happens - but in this case, there's plenty of
blame to go around, and very little of it would logically land at
GWB's feet.

Mark Hickey

You are right, there is plenty of blame to go around, and I'm sure there
will be a continuous string of fingers pointing for quite some time.

But GWB deserves nearly every bit of the blame his administration is
taking, as do the state and local officials.

The response to the issue is and was totally FUBAR!

And while I certainly hope I'm wrong, if this had happened in one of our
more affluent urban areas, I can't help thinking that the response would
have been quicker and more effective.

 

[Don]

You are right, there is plenty of blame to go around, and I'm sure there
will be a continuous string of fingers pointing for quite some time.

But GWB deserves nearly every bit of the blame his administration is
taking, as do the state and local officials.

The response to the issue is and was totally FUBAR!

And while I certainly hope I'm wrong, if this had happened in one of our
more affluent urban areas, I can't help thinking that the response would
have been quicker and more effective.

Every Democrat wants to blame Bush. The Democratic mantra has been to blame
Bush for everything and never, never, never, never make any contribution
that could improve anything - only trash Bush. If there was something
constructive that they could offer, I would agree with many of their
statements about Bush, but they contribute absolutely nothing.

I don't like Bush either. His decision to invade Iraq was the most stupid
decision that any president has made in my memory. He is not the person to
blame though. Everyone, both Democrats and Republicans, share equally for
the events that have taken place. The finger pointers wanted 50,000 rescue
and support personnel on site within one hour after the hurricane winds
dropped below 100 mph. They wanted drinking water, food, boats,
electricity, etc. on site immediately. Expectations were totally
unreasonable. The easiest thing in the world to do is Monday morning
quarterback. Hell, almost anyone could run the operation after it is over,
but being put under the gun in an unprecedented situation is not a place
anyone wants to be and anyone would have probably made the same mistakes.

If there is anyone who shares a heavier burden of blame, I believe that the
mayor of New Orleans is leading the pack. He appears to be completely in
over his head and non-functional. Can you imagine what would have been said
if the New York mayor had sent 1/4 of the rescue personnel off to Las Vegas
"during" the recovery operation after 9/11? He would have been crucified.

Don D.

 

[The Wogster]

Yes, please - let's. There has been plenty of money spent on the NO
levee system, yet it would NOT have mattered had more been spent.
Even if the full amount requested every year for the last few years
had been spent - the same result would have occurred. The system was
not designed to withstand the amount of water Katrina brought into it.
Period. There have been proposals to upgrade the system to something
that WOULD withstand a category 5 storm, but no one (including plenty
of former presidents) ever made it happen (nor would it have been a
particularly good idea, from what I've read).

To truly believe that this disaster is GWB's fault is to be uninformed
or just naive. It's normal in our culture to want to blame someone
for everything that happens - but in this case, there's plenty of
blame to go around, and very little of it would logically land at
GWB's feet.

Actually the problem happed long before GWB came to power, and could
have existed before GWB was even born. It belongs at the feet of the
idiot who decided to build on the deltas and marshes, that were the
natural protection for the higher ground in the first place.

Knowing that now, they should restore the deltas and marshes, and build
the city higher up, and further in.

W

 

[Mark Hickey]

Interestingly enough, I was talking to an oldster retired from
the Corp of Engineers. He says that their records show that the Corp
wanted to BUILD the things originally to withstand Cat 5.
In the land of unintended consequences, the system itself has
ended up actually adding to the problems. Since they divert the
river and thus the silt, the delta has been shrinking for many
years. This means less "front yard" so to speak to "soak up" the
storm surges.

And the diversion of the silt that formerly added to the delta's land
mass and countered the natural subsidence no longer gets to the
populated areas, meaning that anything built on the non-French Quarter
part of NO has been sinking for well over a century. I've also read
studies that indicate that even if they DID build the Cat5 system, a
really big storm would still create such a storm surge that it would
still innundate it and the system would then just hold the water in.

Bottom line, don't build under sea level in an area subject to Cat5
storms. Call me paranoid...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

 

[Mark Hickey]

You are right, there is plenty of blame to go around, and I'm sure there
will be a continuous string of fingers pointing for quite some time.

But GWB deserves nearly every bit of the blame his administration is
taking, as do the state and local officials.

I've got less than no problem with those who are calling for better
response from the feds and FEMA... none at all. But there's no way to
believe that those who are unconcerned about the horrible local
government's handling of the crisis, but are rev'd up about GWB's
personal involvement are doing so for anything other than political
reasons.

The response to the issue is and was totally FUBAR!

State and local - you betcha. The feds could have done better too,
they were later than they should have been, but that, in the grand
scheme of things - particularly considering the amazing job they've
done after they did arrive - is a relatively small part of the
problem, IMHO.

And while I certainly hope I'm wrong, if this had happened in one of our
more affluent urban areas, I can't help thinking that the response would
have been quicker and more effective.

If only because the more afluent urban areas might tend to elect more
responsible local and state government... (think "Florida").

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

 

[tr2267]

Every Democrat wants to blame Bush. The Democratic mantra has been to blame
Bush for everything and never, never, never, never make any contribution

This thing goes WAY beyond the usual partisan spin from political hacks.
There is a realization in both parties among everybody with a clue that Bush
fucked up big time. Thousands of Americans are D*E*A*D because of a massive
leadership failure, not because of terrorism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jim VandeHei
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, September 5, 2005; A17

Bush is trying to undo what many Republicans described as considerable
damage to the White House inflicted by Bush's crisis management. "Almost
every Republican I have spoken with is disappointed" in Bush's
performance, said William Kristol, a conservative columnist with close
White House ties.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

that could improve anything - only trash Bush. If there was something
constructive that they could offer, I would agree with many of their
statements about Bush, but they contribute absolutely nothing.

What the hell?!? The GOP controls all 3 branches of government. The Dems
would love to "contribute something". Both houses of Congress are rubber
stamps run under a dictatorship system the GOP leadership calls "majority of
the majority", whereby no legislation passes without a MAJORITY OF
REPUBLICANS (not a majority of congressmen) approval. On the other hand
after this failure of government something tells me the Dems will
contributing a lot more after the next elections. I think this is going to
affect America for decades and more so than 9/11. And every Democratic
presidential candidate and at least half of the Republican candidates of
the last 50 years would have done a better job responding to this crises
than Bush. Can anybody imagine President Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter,
LBJ, or John F Kennedy doing the piss poor job Bush did in the aftermath
of losing an entire US city?

 

[Bill Sornson]

This thing goes WAY beyond the usual partisan spin from political
hacks. There is a realization in both parties among everybody with a
clue that Bush fucked up big time. Thousands of Americans are
D*E*A*D because of a massive leadership failure, not because of
terrorism.

Grand total of 13%, according to today's USA Today poll. About the same
number that would find fault with him saving a baby seal from clubbing.

What the hell?!? The GOP controls all 3 branches of government. The
Dems would love to "contribute something".

Then why don't they EVER offer alternative solutions? I mean, /anything/???

 

[tr2267]

Yes, please - let's. There has been plenty of money spent on the NO
levee system, yet it would NOT have mattered had more been spent.

Bullshit. The professionals in the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers which has a
pretty good record determined it was worthwhile spending a relatively
insignificant $105 million to shore up the levees and pumping stations in New
Orleans. Just because the system was not designed at the beginning to
withstand a category 5 storm does NOT mean a breakdown was inevitable. The
levees did hold for nearly a whole day. Even if the $105million to shore up
the levees only descreased the odds by %40 of losing 150 BILLION DOLLARS in
taxpayer funds and $500 BILLION in lost GNP and more Americans lives lost
than the sum of every terrorism death ever is the value is plainly obvious.
If it is still not plainly obvious then calculate if it is worth spending
$10.50 to decrease the odds by %40 of losing $60,000.00 and a bunch of human
lives.

Even if the full amount requested every year for the last few years >had

been spent - the same result would have occurred. The system was

not designed to withstand the amount of water Katrina brought into it.
Period.

LOL. George Bush and all of top government officials seemd to be every bit as
certain that the levees WOULD hold as you are of the exact OPPOSITE result.
What does that say about how much a shit-for-brains Bush is? Of course the
real truth all along was in the middle. It might or might not have. And the
extremist viewpoints of Bush on the one extreme and you on the exact
opposite extreme with both of you being "certain" smacks of arrogance.