R.I.P. General Motors (1931-2006)

[Gordon McGrew]

Actually your now showing that you don't know very much about engines. OHC
is a lot more complicated than even engines with two extra cylinders and
costs more rather than saving any.

No doubt about it. Modern high-tech engines cost more than
refurbished dinosaurs.

GM's "obsolete" pushrod engines have
been refined for many years are are able to push a car to the same mpg as
an overly complex OHC engine without requiring any maintenance at 60k mile
intervals. Sure the OHC engine can boast more HP per liter but when that
HP only comes near peak rpm and at a sacrifice of torque its not worth it.
To actually get to use all that high HP you have to run the engine where
its least efficient so you get a tradeoff of either driving extremely slow
to get the advertised mpg or getting low mpg and getting that advertised
HP. Pushrod engines have peak torque at a low rpm where normal everyday
driving occurs so you get good power while still getting good mpg.

Saying an engine has "peak torque at a low rpm" is just another way of
saying it runs out of breath at higher rpms. If you compare engines
of comparable configuration and displacement, you will find that the
modern OHC engines will usually have as much or more torque than a GM
push rod engine does at its peak. The difference is that the push rod
motor torque drops off from that point while the high tech
powerplant's torque keeps rising and hence the higher peak horsepower.

Consider the Buick LaCrosse and the Honda Accord.

curb
weight engine peak torque peak hp
LaCrosse 3565 3.8 V6 230 @4000 200 @5200
Accord 3390 3.0 V6 211 @5000 244 @6244


So you would contend that the Accord with the much smaller engine and
the lower torque at a higher rpm would somehow be at a disadvantage
with respect to performance and fuel economy?

Here are results of Consumer Reports testing. Note 1: CR testing is
harder than most - acceleration measured from engine idle, very
intense city economy cycle with lots of idling and stop and go. Note
2: if you don't like CR testing, post another source. Few publishers
even bother to test Buicks these days.

0-60 45-65 1/4 Mi. fuel economy
LaCrosse 9.0 6.3 17.0 12/30
Accord V6 7.4 4.2 15.9 15/34

Now, if your argument is that the Accord V6 would be less drivable due
to its higher torque peak, consider that Accord is the first or second
best selling car in the US and most buyers buy it with the 4 cylinder
engines and are very happy with the performance (and economy).

The
general car buying public doesn't understand this so they hear the bigger
HP numbers and think those are the better engines. Instead of refining the
simpler technology its quicker to take a shortcut and stick in an OHC amnd
advertise the numbers.

Most buyers of a car like the Accord are not that interested in the
horsepower rating. They like the way the car performs even with a 4.
GM would not be going down the drain if the only thing Honda and
Toyota had to sell were numbers.

 

[Gordon McGrew]

The Chevy Aveo is made by (GM owned) Daewoo in South Korea.

You can't get more American than that.

 

[Jason]

No doubt about it. Modern high-tech engines cost more than
refurbished dinosaurs.


Saying an engine has "peak torque at a low rpm" is just another way of
saying it runs out of breath at higher rpms. If you compare engines
of comparable configuration and displacement, you will find that the
modern OHC engines will usually have as much or more torque than a GM
push rod engine does at its peak. The difference is that the push rod
motor torque drops off from that point while the high tech
powerplant's torque keeps rising and hence the higher peak horsepower.

Consider the Buick LaCrosse and the Honda Accord.

curb

weight engine peak torque peak hp
LaCrosse 3565 3.8 V6 230 @4000 200 @5200
Accord 3390 3.0 V6 211 @5000 244 @6244


So you would contend that the Accord with the much smaller engine and
the lower torque at a higher rpm would somehow be at a disadvantage
with respect to performance and fuel economy?

Here are results of Consumer Reports testing. Note 1: CR testing is
harder than most - acceleration measured from engine idle, very
intense city economy cycle with lots of idling and stop and go. Note
2: if you don't like CR testing, post another source. Few publishers
even bother to test Buicks these days.

0-60 45-65 1/4 Mi. fuel economy
LaCrosse 9.0 6.3 17.0 12/30
Accord V6 7.4 4.2 15.9 15/34

Now, if your argument is that the Accord V6 would be less drivable due
to its higher torque peak, consider that Accord is the first or second
best selling car in the US and most buyers buy it with the 4 cylinder
engines and are very happy with the performance (and economy).


Most buyers of a car like the Accord are not that interested in the
horsepower rating. They like the way the car performs even with a 4.
GM would not be going down the drain if the only thing Honda and
Toyota had to sell were numbers.

Hello,
Excellent points but you failed to include two other factors:
Resell value: The Honda wins that contest.
Quality: Which car will run the best for 100,000 miles? Honda wins that contest.
Which car will break down the most or develop major mechanical problems
during the 100,000 miles? GM wins that contest.
Car and Driver magazine runs long term tests on various vehicles--Cars
made my Japanese companies do much better than cars made by GM.
Jason

 

[Gordon McGrew]

Dear Jeff,

Having worked as an hourly employee and having had management in the family,
I can tell you what a union would do for Wal-mart: Less than nothing.
Wal-mart would have a gigantic going out of business sale.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Sam Walton
would have rather died than go union. And the people running the company
now are of the same mind. But Sam had good wages and benefits back in the
day. He actually RAISED the standard of living for his employees in some of
the small towns he first built stores in.

But now-a-days, non-unions do more harm than good.

Also, Unions have been a disaster for the Public Schools. I watched the
standards slide quite a bit in just the 13 years I was in public school. I
have some friends that recently came out of public school and they are
telling me stuff that would scare people.

Try New Trier. First rate education. Of course, they pay their
teachers like $90K.

It's becoming increasingly about
indoctrination. And our governor here in Illinois wants to push for 2 years
of pre-school for all, so they can indoctrinate the little kiddies more.

For a lot of impoverished children, getting into the school system two
years earlier could make all the difference in the world.

 

[rantonrave]

Take the hybrid for instance.
In Detroit, they did the math.

The truth: hybrids cost more money to make than they will EVER save in the
miserable improvement in gas mileage they bring over a similar all gas
model.

So, in Detroit, hybrids made no sense.

In Detroit, scrapping 15-year-old car designs, upgrading factories, and
even inventing the minivan also made no sense because the MBA mindset
hates uncertainty, and capital investment always includes a high degree
of uncertainty.

But in the California design centers of the Japanese makers, American
designers and engineers realized that it isn't facts, it's emotion that
drive auto purchases.

Hybrids are uneconomical at $3/gallon, but at $5+ it's another matter,
and currently no realistic alternatives exist improve fuel consumption
much, except diesels, but crude oil yields far less diesel than
gasoline. And if we ever adopt a sensible energy plan, then either gas
will be $5/gallon, or vehicles with bad fuel economy will cost more to
buy than the efficient ones.

 

[Charles U' Farley]

That would be quite in keeping with a short-sighted UAW mentality: screw GM
today so I can screw my own pension/benefits tomorrow.

Kinds like what got GM/UAW where it is today.

 

[Charles U' Farley]

Unions are still a great idea; responsible unions that understand it's not
"us vs. them" but "us and them".

The Japanese car makers have unionized work forces in Japan. Of course the
Japanese unions realize that it is in their own best interest not to try to
bleed their employer dry with absurd contracts, something the UAW has yet to
learn judging by their unwillingness to negotiate in good faith with
basket-case Delphi.

To be fair, the UAW leadership has to put up with knuckleheads in their
ranks like these clowns who seem bent on screwing up and progress that might
be made.

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2777

To be sure, these people are the product of UAW rhetoric from years past and
even today.

 

[R Sweeney]

Hybrids are uneconomical at $3/gallon, but at $5+ it's another matter,

Not even at $5/gal... do the math -t he Detroit guys did.

At $5/gal, the Prius won't even save enough money to pay off its battery
replacement, much less it's up-front cost.

A Prius saves only 62 gallons a year over its equivalent non-hybrid Toyota
(that's assuming you actually GET the EPA miles, many, if not most, hybrid
owners complain they don't - so much so the EPA is redesigning the mpg test
for hybrids)

But let's assume you fit perfectly and the book mpg.

The eco-hybrid costs $7500 more up front + needs a $2000 battery @ 100K/10yr

Even $10/gal gas won't realistically recoup the $7500 (plus declining value
interest on the $7500) much less the $2000 battery bill every ten years.

Assuming 10K miles/yr, with 4% real cost of money and batteries, it would
take 27 years to breakeven with $10/gal gas, 14 years at $15/gal.

Hybrids are feel good cars for the faithful.

Now... a plug hybrid (recharged off the grid and run commuter 100% electric
w/o gas at all) is another story, but then no automaker makes or sells those
here.

 

[Wickeddoll®]

You can't get more American than that.

LOL

Natalie

 

[n5hsr]

You say that like it's a bad thing.


But now-a-days, non-unions do more harm than good.


Try New Trier. First rate education. Of course, they pay their
teachers like $90K.

Dear Gordon,

The whole idea of public school is that I shouldn't have to buy property in
New Trier to get a good education for my kids.

And throwing money at the teachers doesn't necessarily help the problem.
We've been throwing money at the problem since the mid-60's. And the NEA
and school districts have been begging for millage increases since then.

For a lot of impoverished children, getting into the school system two
years earlier could make all the difference in the world.

So they can become indoctrinated Democrat clones. Hillary tried pulling
this in 1990 in Arkansas.

 

[Gordon McGrew]

Dear Gordon,

The whole idea of public school is that I shouldn't have to buy property in
New Trier to get a good education for my kids.

But as long as the budgets are paid from property taxes, places with
expensive real estate will have more money for the schools.

And throwing money at the teachers doesn't necessarily help the problem.
We've been throwing money at the problem since the mid-60's. And the NEA
and school districts have been begging for millage increases since then.

I don't think that outside the New Trier district and similar locales,
the wages for teachers are very high. Even at New Trier, they get the
cream of the crop with PhDs in education for 90 or 100K. That is
hardly out of line with what a comparable worker would make in private
industry.

The fun part is when someone tries to put a cap on local property
taxes in these places. All of these tax-cut conservatives start
screaming about how unwise it would be to cut their taxes. Maybe they
know that you do get more when you pay more and they don't skimp on
their children's education.

 

[n5hsr]

But as long as the budgets are paid from property taxes, places with
expensive real estate will have more money for the schools.


I don't think that outside the New Trier district and similar locales,
the wages for teachers are very high. Even at New Trier, they get the
cream of the crop with PhDs in education for 90 or 100K. That is
hardly out of line with what a comparable worker would make in private
industry.

The fun part is when someone tries to put a cap on local property
taxes in these places. All of these tax-cut conservatives start
screaming about how unwise it would be to cut their taxes. Maybe they
know that you do get more when you pay more and they don't skimp on
their children's education.

As much money as we're throwing at it in some districts, we could hire a
tutor for each kid. And we've raised that amount quite a bit since 1965.
So what have we really gained? And why do so many public figures send their
kids to private schools? And why has home schooling got so big?

Charles of Schaumburg.

 

[John Horner]

About a half hour ride from here is an abandon GE factory and all the
ground water is polluted for miles. Don't take it personally John, but
screw you.
mark_

No thanks, you clearly are not my type.

 

[Mike Hunter]

Actually the Aveo is built by Suzuki in a Korean plant formally owned by
Daewoo. Why is it OK to buy a foreign car from a foreign company but not OK
to buy a foreign can from an American company? At least the American
company pay federal corporate income taxes on the profit earned

mike hunt

 

[mark_digital]

gasoline. And if we ever adopt a sensible energy plan, then either gas
will be $5/gallon, or vehicles with bad fuel economy will cost more to
buy than the efficient ones.

For sake of argument suppose the air quality is dirty in your area and the
cause is from motor vehicles. Well, we all have to breathe but it's unfair
to make everyone pay to clean it up because not everyone drives. Yes it
would be nice to spread the cost but I think enough people are fed up paying
for services a few want. So the alternative is to put the necessary
technology into the vehicles.
I see the local fire departments may adopt a similar strategy by whacking
those they have to respond to with fees and fines because if they don't, the
increase cost will have to be spread over the whole community. Good
incentive to lose weight and not call the fire department to help get you
off the toilet.LOL!!! The home owners insurance company will be billed and I
hope the insurance company considers them a risk and raises their rate than
to spread it out otherwise the whole idea would be a waste.

mark_

 

[rantonrave]

Not even at $5/gal... do the math -t he Detroit guys did.

At $5/gal, the Prius won't even save enough money to pay off its battery
replacement, much less it's up-front cost.

A Prius saves only 62 gallons a year over its equivalent non-hybrid Toyota
(that's assuming you actually GET the EPA miles, many, if not most, hybrid
owners complain they don't - so much so the EPA is redesigning the mpg test
for hybrids)

But let's assume you fit perfectly and the book mpg.

The eco-hybrid costs $7500 more up front + needs a $2000 battery @ 100K/10yr

Even $10/gal gas won't realistically recoup the $7500 (plus declining value
interest on the $7500) much less the $2000 battery bill every ten years.

Assuming 10K miles/yr, with 4% real cost of money and batteries, it would
take 27 years to breakeven with $10/gal gas, 14 years at $15/gal.

Hybrids are feel good cars for the faithful.

That's almost always going to be the case for people who drive only
10K/year, but people who travel 3-4 times that much can come out ahead,
as some NYC cabbies have.

I wouldn't assume EPA mileage numbers for either hybrids or IC-only
cars, but Consumer Reports numbers have been realistic, and my Prius
got very close to their 35/50. I didn't buy it for the savings or
ecological purposes but for the same reason exterminators often drive
Beetles with toilet seats on the roof to represent mouse ears --
advertising.

 

[Gosi]

In Sweden ecocarsales increased 540% in march

http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=678&a=534192&previousRenderType=6

They are now 15% of the total carsales

 

[Cool Jet]

In Sweden ecocarsales increased 540% in march

Björn, that's like saying that ecocarsales went from 5 units to 27
units in March. Big deal! Was that year over year? Month over month? Be
more specific.

http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polypoly.jsp?d=678&a=534192&previousRenderType=6

Sadly, not all of us can read the Swedish or Icelandic languages, so
for your comment to be meaningful, you would have to provide more
specific information.

They are now 15% of the total carsales

They who? Worldwide? In Sweden? In Iceland? Japan? North America? That
means nothing if overall car sales are down, say 30% over the period
under comparison. Please provide further details, so we can form a
reasoned opinion.

 

[Gosi]

Miljöbilarna slår nytt rekord
ecocars make new records

Miljöbilarna svarade för hela 15 procent av registreringarna i mars,
ecocars counted for 15% of registration in march

nytt rekord. Det framgår av en särredovisning av statistiken som Bil
Sweden gjort.
new record. This is according to statistics from Bil Sweden

Totalt såldes 3.845 miljöbilar. Det var en ökning med hela 540
procent jämfört med mars
Total sales 3.845 ecocars. That is increase by 540% compared with march

i fjol. Alla typer av miljöbilar, etanol, gas, hybrid och extremt
snåla bensin- och
last year. All types of ecocars, etanol, gas, hybrid and especially
effective besin and

dieselbilar ökade.
diesel cars increased

Saab 9-5 Biopower blev den i särklass mest sålda miljöbilen i mars
med 1.531
Saab 9-5 Biopower was the most sold ecocar in march with 1.531

registreringar. På andra plats kom Ford Focus Fleifuel och på tredje
plats Volvo V50
registrations. Second place Ford Focus Fleifuel and third place Volvo
V50

Flexifuel.
Flexifuel.

 

[Guest]

I hope those that leave GM take there severence pay and buy a Honda or
Toyota!

Toyotas last so long they could get a good used one that better fits
their budget.
By the way I'm very saddened by this GM mess. I used to buy GM products
as did my family, but I left them in the 80s for better products from
Chrysler.
Now Chrysler is a "foreign" manufacturer as is Toyota.