R.I.P. General Motors (1931-2006)

[dizzy]

Having to currently drive a rental due to my truck being in the body shop
because a couple kids hit it while parked I was surprised to see there are
a lot more than GM or Ford in the rental car lots. They gave me a 2005 Kia
Optima and it is the biggest piece of junk I have ever been in, I don't see
why people bother to buy them.

You had to quote almost 140 lines to add that to the bottom? It's
people like you who give fuel to the idiot top-posters. Please trim
your posts appropriately.

 

[CompUser]

I would say what a sad day for America, when the American consumer helps in
creating a situation where other Americans, including their own children and
grand children, have so many fewer jobs available were they can make a good
living.

The sad day actually began with the production of
a non-competitive product. Shame on you. Since
when has second best (or worse) been ok, for
America?

If we American keep exporting our jobs, as fast as we are today, the only
skill their children will need is how to say, "Do you want fries with that?"
or "Welcome to WalMart."

It all starts with the manufacturers.

By putting out less functional designs, with
more assembly flaws (failure to supervise
production), you're generating an inferior
product.

Some people will succumb to the maker's attempts
to wrap themselves in the flag, and continue
buying...others will use their noggins, and buy
the best product/value they can find.

 

[CompUser]

Mike,
Please stop top posting.

"Mike" has been advised about his
top posting, at least a dozen times.

In spite of it's inefficiency, he keeps doing it;
even when he sees other posters using more
effective techniques.

It is, what he's used to. And, he's either
unable, or unwilling, to change.

Hmmm...sounds a lot like some auto makers,
no?

 

[CompUser]

I disagree. I think that Consumer Reports is biased against American car
companies. American car companies have better qualtiy than Consumer Reports
gives them credit for.

Consumer Reports doesn't give the credit, "we"
(the subscribers) do. They use an annual
questionnaire to gain feedback on vehicles, and
a bunch of other typical household items. In the
April 2006 issue, the vehicle ratings were based
on just over one million responses.

Based on the reactions to CR, I think some people
confuse them with some of the cheesy imitations,
such as "Consumer Research", etc.

 

[CompUser]

,

One of the other posters indicated that dealers can give special deals
(low prices) for the fleet owners that lease 5 or more cars at the same
time.

Mike said he'd give us a full explanation
of Franchise Law---but that he had to check
with his manager first. He walked out ten
minutes ago, we haven't seen him since....

 

[Bob Palmer]

I would say what a sad day for America, when the American consumer helps in
creating a situation where other Americans, including their own children
and grand children, have so many fewer jobs available were they can make a
good living.

If we American keep exporting our jobs, as fast as we are today, the only
skill their children will need is how to say, "Do you want fries with
that?" or "Welcome to WalMart."

mike hunt

The situation we are in is not because of the American citizen, but because
of the US government. The government has run up trillions of dollars in debt
which is held by foreign banks, which in turn dictate policy. Trade policy,
war policy and any other policy that they can manipulate. We basically do
not have a country anymore. We are controlled by the world's largest banks
and their associated governments. Fifty percent of the income tax you pay
to the federal government goes to these banks for interest on the national
debt. Bush is a pawn in this process who cannot find the gumption to say no
to them. It is this situation that will be the downfall of GM and eventually
Ford. No matter what you choose to believe, we are in a global economic
situation, not national.

 

[Bob Palmer]

And the people that believe that shit. are morons. I know first hand that
Honda, and Toys are no better than domestics. I was a mechanic at a Toy
dealer. And they had just as many vehicles in their bays as the Gm, and
Ford
dealers across the street. Come to think of it, the domestics outnumber
the
Jap shit 10 - 1, and yet Toyo had just as many vehicles in their bays as
the others. What does that tell ya dipshit!

This just goes to prove that some people are in denial. I own a Honda and I
own a Toyota. Both of their service departments are like ghost towns. I may
have to wait 15 minutes because someone else is also getting an oil change
like myself, or an inspection sticker. A friend of mine is the service
manager of a GM dealership and he says they don't even know how to fix half
of their vehicles problems.

 

[Bob Palmer]

How come I've read professional reviewer comments like "spotty build
quality (Edmunds on the F250)" on consumer sites and magazines about
Ford and Chevy full-size trucks? I personally know several locals who
have had some serious ABS problems with Silverados and Tahoes.

Full size truck drivers tend to be very, very brand loyal. It's not
unusual to hear them describe themselves as "Chevy Men", etc... I
doubt many of them would actually admit their vehicle HAD a problem,
others wouldn't know a high-quality vehicle if it ran them over. On
a side note, many of these same people consider Harley Davidson as
quality construction and make fun of BMW, Ducati, Triumph, and other
amazing new motorcycles. <G>

I couldn't believe how many full sized truck owners called me crazy
because I asked my dealer to track down a rattle on my new Tacoma.
Over and over, I heard, "it's a truck" from full-sized truck owners,
who called me "overly picky" and "anal". I also head "It's a truck,
trucks make noises"... No kidding!

My very-early 2005 Tacoma had a cab mount issue and noisy rear springs
that Toyota corrected on the running line and TSB'd affected trucks.
My noises were fixed without a fight, and the truck is dead-perfect
now. "It's a TOYOTA, it SHOULDN'T MAKE NOISES!" The dealer
agreed! <G>

I agree. Many friends and family owners say they love their domestic pickups
and then in the same breath say the transmission needed replacement, the
steering is messed up, the rear-end rattles all over, the engine is smoking,
etc. etc. etc. I also live in PA somewhat near the Harley-Davidson factory.
Everyone MUST have a Harley-Davidson. Yet the HD owners spend half their
time adjusting and fixing the damn things. We have 2 Honda 100MPG scooters
that run and run and never need adjusting. My 2005 Tacoma is tight as a
drum. I was turned on to Tacoma when I test drove a 5 year old used one that
had been beaten up and thrown away and yet it drove like new and had no
rattles.

 

[Bob Palmer]

U-Haul stopped renting to Explorer owners because of Firestones tire
problem, not because there was a problem with the vehicle. The figure is
no where near 60%, and what possible difference does it make who buys ones
product?


mike hunt

U-Haul does not rent to any Explorer owners, old or new, Firestone tires or
not. The company told my wife, who tried to rent one for one of her company
reps who had an Explorer, that Explorers are involved in too many crashes
and have many diverse lawsuits currently against them.

 

[razz]

Like I said, I was a mech at a toy dealership and the bays were full all the
time. Head gasket problem, head warpage, steering problems, control arm
problems, worn cam shaft lobes. I can go on, the Honda accord that we owned
had worn lobes at 50,000 miles, fixed it and got rid of that piece of shit.

 

[Jeff]

This just goes to prove that some people are in denial. I own a Honda and
I own a Toyota. Both of their service departments are like ghost towns. I
may have to wait 15 minutes because someone else is also getting an oil
change like myself, or an inspection sticker. A friend of mine is the
service manager of a GM dealership and he says they don't even know how to
fix half of their vehicles problems.

My father owned a shop that rebuild engines and reconditioned heads (valves
jobs, surfacing, etc.). He got a lot of business from a Toyota dealer as
well as the GM and Ford dealers.

Some dealers are not very good at major engine work, and try to get the
costumers to take their cars to other dealers. I suspect that Toyota will
not put up with that kind of crap from their dealers, though.

Toyotas have problems as well.

Jeff

 

[R Sweeney]

Every manufacture is making good dependable vehicles today the only real
difference among them is style and price

thus the problem for American car makers

the Japanese cars are styled by west coast kids.
The US cars by older Detroit suburb residents

and the US cars have to drag along the UAW and the retirees

 

[Guest]

thus the problem for American car makers

the Japanese cars are styled by west coast kids. True.

The US cars by older Detroit suburb residents

Mostly true, but compare the Chrysler 300C to the German Audi A8.
Kind of a similar styling theme EH!
Well at least not those oldie Detroit stylists.

and the US cars have to drag along the UAW and the retirees

It's those laid off who get paid to do nothing for several years that is
sinking GM and also affecting Ford.

 

[Bob Palmer]

Like I said, I was a mech at a toy dealership and the bays were full all
the
time. Head gasket problem, head warpage, steering problems, control arm
problems, worn cam shaft lobes. I can go on, the Honda accord that we
owned
had worn lobes at 50,000 miles, fixed it and got rid of that piece of
shit.

Is Mike Hunter and razz the same person?

 

[Jeff]

thus the problem for American car makers

the Japanese cars are styled by west coast kids.

Toyota has a design and R&D facility near Detroit. However, it bigger one in
the US is in CA.

The US cars by older Detroit suburb residents

The Ford Contour, Focus and 500 I believe were designed by Ford in Europe,
not the US.

and the US cars have to drag along the UAW and the retirees

and the health care.

Jeff

 

[Gosi]

More Trouble Than I Thought at GM

GM will sell 51% of their GMAC financing arm really brought home to me
how bad things are at GM. I had assumed that GM was facing the same
type demographic bomb as the airlines, fat and underfunded pensions and
retiree health care benefits promised when times were good and US auto
makers didn't face much troubling competition.

GMAC is reported to make about $2.5 - 3 billion a year in profits.
This might tend to imply a value of at least $25 to $30 billion, which
is confirmed by the fact that GM just sold half for $14 billion. But
GM as a whole has a market cap of just under twelve billion. This
means that their entire manufacturing business is valued in the market
at roughtly -$16 Billion. Yes, negative sixteen billion. Another way
to look at this is that if instead of selling GMAC , GM had instead
sold all of their automotive manufacturing, brands, designs, etc. to
someone for $1, and became a pure financing business, GM shareholders
would be richer by $16 billion, the equivilent of raising the current
stock price from about $21 to about $49.

 

[Jeff]

More Trouble Than I Thought at GM

GM will sell 51% of their GMAC financing arm really brought home to me
how bad things are at GM. I had assumed that GM was facing the same
type demographic bomb as the airlines, fat and underfunded pensions and
retiree health care benefits promised when times were good and US auto
makers didn't face much troubling competition.

Plus, retirees now live longer, meaning that there is more retirement to pay
for, health care costs are skyrocketing, and with automation, it takes fewer
man- and women-hours to build a car or truck.

GMAC is reported to make about $2.5 - 3 billion a year in profits.
This might tend to imply a value of at least $25 to $30 billion, which
is confirmed by the fact that GM just sold half for $14 billion. But
GM as a whole has a market cap of just under twelve billion. This
means that their entire manufacturing business is valued in the market
at roughtly -$16 Billion.

It means that their entire manufacturing division plus their pension and
health care libalities and other problems are valued at $-4 Billion. In
other words, their plants might be valued at $5 Billion and thier
liabilities at -$9 B.

Yes, negative sixteen billion. Another way
to look at this is that if instead of selling GMAC , GM had instead
sold all of their automotive manufacturing, brands, designs, etc. to
someone for $1, and became a pure financing business, GM shareholders
would be richer by $16 billion, the equivilent of raising the current
stock price from about $21 to about $49.

Not really. Because they would have to pay someone to buy their automotive
manufacturing plants, health care costs, pensions, etc.

Jeff

 

[Gosi]

they would have to pay someone to buy their automotive

manufacturing plants, health care costs, pensions, etc.

They will not pay

They put it to the government to pay for the health care and pensions

The shareholders will not get anything

At the moment management is busy getting their hands on bonuses etc as
long as they can and are allowed to fool everyone

 

[Lee Florack]

Spam Hater wrote:
[snip]

It's those laid off who get paid to do nothing for several years that is
sinking GM and also affecting Ford.

So it's NOT the UAW and their ridiculous wages for unskilled
workers, absurd medical and retiree costs? It's just those laid off
and sucking money that's the problem? Interesting.

 

[Jacob Johnson]

they would have to pay someone to buy their automotive
manufacturing plants, health care costs, pensions, etc.

They will not pay

They put it to the government to pay for the health care and pensions

The shareholders will not get anything

At the moment management is busy getting their hands on bonuses etc as
long as they can and are allowed to fool everyone

Many of the shareholders have already sold their stocks and thousands
more are selling their stocks every day. It's my guess that the value
of GM stocks will keep getting lower and lower and lower.
I doubt that any foreign car company will buy GM since they don't
want to get stuck with the costs related to health care and pensions.
Jason