R.I.P. General Motors (1931-2006)

[Guest]

In other
words, the same sort of thing that happened to Chrysler MAY happen to GM.

I don't get the connection of GM to Chrysler,
unless you mean GM will totally upgrade their product line using the
best technology from around the world.

IMO I can't see such staid GM management taking such a step.
GM stands out as not responding to current car trends.
Ford and to a lesser degree Chrysler do.

If GM tries a Chrysler 300 move it's too late, there's no more room for
another ugly, heavy, overpowered mid sized car.
The 300 never did sell that well in our market and you can now get
slightly used a 2005 model for around half price.
A bit more than half price if you buy one of the NEW Magnum or Pacifica
(an earlier heavy gas eating beast)
models still sitting waiting for an owner.

 

[Guest]

Good point. Probably for the same reasons that the owners of Mercedes
purchased the Chryler corp. They continued to make the best selling
vehicles such as Jeep
and the full sized pick-ups. They stopped making the worst selling vehicles.
Jason

I don't recall Chrysler discontinuing early any vehicles as a result of
the Mercedes takeover.
Mercedes bought Chrysler to lower costs by sharing components, such as
Chrysler V8 engines and Mercedes drive trains, etc.
That Mercedes drive train meant RWD, which also was needed for the very
large 300C V8.
Chrysler has the volume to lower costs that Mercedes doesn't.

Ref: Chrysler 500 and the twice the price large Mercedes,
plus recently the Chrysler Caliber and the Mercedes B200.

It has backfired a bit in that many of Chryslers existing mid size
customers didn't buy the 300 and Mercedes lost large sized big engined
customers to the Chrysler 300.
Chrysler ends up making money due to the high priced 300, Mercedes loses
money.

 

[Gosi]

There are desperate measures taken

"The letter, signed by 36 of GM's dealers, lauds Mr Wagoner as "an
excellent leader, father, husband and human being". It calls on
Americans to support the company, saying "for the good of everyone,
they must succeed and they need our help. We pledge ours. We hope you
will do the same"."

everyone in this case is GMs dealers

The nails in the coffin gather around

 

[Jon Patrick]

The 300 never did sell that well in our market and you can now get
slightly used a 2005 model for around half price.

wow. what market are YOU in? for 1/2 price, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
JP

 

[John Horner]

I don't recall Chrysler discontinuing early any vehicles as a result of
the Mercedes takeover.

They killed the whole Eagle brand right away as I recall, though maybe
that was before Daimler got involved. Not long after, Plymouth his the
dust bin.

One of the things GM needs to do is to scrap at least 50% of the
brand/model combinations it has right now.

John

 

[John Horner]

There are desperate measures taken

"The letter, signed by 36 of GM's dealers, lauds Mr Wagoner as "an
excellent leader, father, husband and human being". It calls on
Americans to support the company, saying "for the good of everyone,
they must succeed and they need our help. We pledge ours. We hope you
will do the same"."

everyone in this case is GMs dealers

The nails in the coffin gather around

It is never a good sign when people are signing pledges of support for a
boss. Never a good sign at all!

John

 

[Jason]

I don't recall Chrysler discontinuing early any vehicles as a result of
the Mercedes takeover.
Mercedes bought Chrysler to lower costs by sharing components, such as
Chrysler V8 engines and Mercedes drive trains, etc.
That Mercedes drive train meant RWD, which also was needed for the very
large 300C V8.
Chrysler has the volume to lower costs that Mercedes doesn't.

Ref: Chrysler 500 and the twice the price large Mercedes,
plus recently the Chrysler Caliber and the Mercedes B200.

It has backfired a bit in that many of Chryslers existing mid size
customers didn't buy the 300 and Mercedes lost large sized big engined
customers to the Chrysler 300.
Chrysler ends up making money due to the high priced 300, Mercedes loses
money.

Hello,
The first couple of years of the take over resulted in almost no major
changes in regard to the vehicles made by Chrysler. I don't have a list in
front of me but I subscribe to Car and Driver magazine. It's obvious that
Mercedes-Benz is now in the process of not making any models that are
losing money in terms of sales records. They are also installing engines
made by Mercedes in some of the Chrysler models. I don't think that any
car company in the World would continue to make a model that was losing
money. An example is the Aztec.
Jason
Jason

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

They killed the whole Eagle brand right away as I recall, though maybe
that was before Daimler got involved. Not long after, Plymouth his the
dust bin.

One of the things GM needs to do is to scrap at least 50% of the
brand/model combinations it has right now.

John

The Plymouth brand was dying for years, if for no other reason than the
name did not sound "cool". Eagle had a perception of being lower quality
that the same model that was built on the same assembly line as the
Mitsubishi.

The salesman I bought my LeSabre from cannot comprehend that Buick dropped
the long standing names and now use Lacrosse and Lucerne. He does not
realize Buick is trying to garner customers from the under 50 age group and
the old names are going to always be associated with old people buying
stodgy old cars.

Sex sells and the old models just did not have it. Nor do the new Ford
lines. The 500 looks like a great stylish car from the 80's. Chrysler
looks like a grouper fish with small windows.

 

[Mike Marlow]

They killed the whole Eagle brand right away as I recall, though maybe
that was before Daimler got involved. Not long after, Plymouth his the
dust bin.

One of the things GM needs to do is to scrap at least 50% of the
brand/model combinations it has right now.

I disagree John. The problem with Dodge and Plymouth was that they were the
same car and appealed to the same crowd. That made them head to head
competitors within the same manufacturer family. That's not the case with
GM. Even when Olds was in the lineup, it really did not compete with
Buick - they were different buyers. More so now that Olds is gone, GM does
not produce cars that compete with each other. They appeal to different
segments of the market. That is healthy, especially when they can take
advantage of parts interchangeability. What GM needs to do in my opinion is
reduce cost from labor, possibly reduce manufacturing costs not related to
labor (not sure how efficient they really are at this point), and come up
with a plan to regain consumer confidence. That in my opinion is going to
have to center around the glaring issues like the gaskets.

Frankly I believe the American consumer would express a lot of confidence if
GM would simply admit to the gasket problems and announce a going forward
plan that would offer the promise of no future gasket problems. I really
don't believe the American consumer is anxious to see GM fail and would
really rather believe in GM again.

 

[Ray O]

<snipped> The salesman I bought my LeSabre from cannot comprehend that
Buick dropped the long standing names and now use Lacrosse and Lucerne. He
does not realize Buick is trying to garner customers from the under 50 age
group and the old names are going to always be associated with old people
buying stodgy old cars.

Sex sells and the old models just did not have it.

If that is the case, Buick should have kept the Lacrosse name in Canada.
Young males would want it for not other reason than the name. ;-)

 

[Jon Patrick]

I disagree John. The problem with Dodge and Plymouth was that they
were the same car and appealed to the same crowd.

and the point was that Dodge was a 'value' brand like chevy and ford, and
plymouth was... um... just cheaper than dodge.!

That made them head
to head competitors within the same manufacturer family. That's not
the case with GM. Even when Olds was in the lineup, it really did not
compete with Buick - they were different buyers. More so now that
Olds is gone, GM does not produce cars that compete with each other.
They appeal to different segments of the market.

Really, you see it that way?

so, chevy is mainstream-value?
Pontiac is sporty-Value
(except for the corvette, oh and the upcoming camaro, both of which are
chevys. Oh!, and the SS versions of the chevy products. Other than
that, crystal clear)
And Buick is kinda TraditionalAmerican/Near-ImportLuxury - Value.
GMC is, um... chevy truck techiefied?
Caddy is upscale 'american'(but not quite european) luxury.

to be honest, with the way chevy is marketed, they could remove GMC and
Pontiac to not compete with Chevy.

Caddy is the ONLY GM brand that's crystal clear on their mission,
message, and product direction (and it shows in their sales and quality).

That is healthy,
especially when they can take advantage of parts interchangeability.
What GM needs to do in my opinion is reduce cost from labor, possibly
reduce manufacturing costs not related to labor (not sure how
efficient they really are at this point), and come up with a plan to
regain consumer confidence. That in my opinion is going to have to
center around the glaring issues like the gaskets.

and product people want. The cobalt is a nice small car, but I heard on
friday they're going to be slowing down production at the plant because
of slow sales.
It's a very good "small car", but it's a bit generic, boring, and not
bad.... it's just *nothing*. There's no sport to it, no styling to stand
out... it could be any manufacturer.
I do recommend it to people, but I think the Caliber is going to clean
it's clock.

Frankly I believe the American consumer would express a lot of
confidence if GM would simply admit to the gasket problems and
announce a going forward plan that would offer the promise of no
future gasket problems. I really don't believe the American consumer
is anxious to see GM fail and would really rather believe in GM again.

I don't think the average consumer knows about any GM gasket problem, or
really cares.

 

[Jeff]

They killed the whole Eagle brand right away as I recall, though maybe
that was before Daimler got involved. Not long after, Plymouth his the
dust bin.

The Eagle brand was created when AMC was aquired by Chrysler. Chrysler
mostly wanted the Jeep brand. AMC had a brand new car ready to go, which was
the Eagle Premier. They had a contract with Renault to buy a certain number
of engines for the car (I think they were 3.0 liter engines similar to the
ones used in the Peugeot 505 V6 and some Volvo models), so Chrysler decided
to bring it out in a new brand. They also put in imported models like the
Talon from Mitsibushi. I think the car was a pretty good car, but the
interior had a lot of cheap plastic. The engine layout was weird in that it
had the same orientation as a rear-wheel drive car (with the crankshaft
running from front to back instead of being transverse-mounted), but it was
front wheel drive.

I think the Eagle brand was killed off before Chrysler was aquired by
Diamler.

One of the things GM needs to do is to scrap at least 50% of the
brand/model combinations it has right now.

Another opinion is that GM needs to do is to differentiate its brands so
that its brands are really different from one another. Ford is trying to do
that with its Lincoln, Mercury, Ford, Volvo and Jag brands.

Of course, GM has GMC, Chevy, Buick, Caddy, Pointiac, Hummer and Saab, so it
has a lot of differentiating to do. (I may have left out one or two brands.)

Jeff

 

[Gordon McGrew]

so, chevy is mainstream-value?
Pontiac is sporty-Value
(except for the corvette, oh and the upcoming camaro, both of which are
chevys. Oh!, and the SS versions of the chevy products. Other than
that, crystal clear)
And Buick is kinda TraditionalAmerican/Near-ImportLuxury - Value.
GMC is, um... chevy truck techiefied?
Caddy is upscale 'american'(but not quite european) luxury.

Don't forget Saturn. The different kind of car company that now is
just another exercise in badge engineering. Can't imagine they will
be around in five years.

 

[Jon Patrick]

Don't forget Saturn. The different kind of car company that now is
just another exercise in badge engineering. Can't imagine they will
be around in five years.

It was actually at the top of my mind when I started the post, and just
slipped my mind.
I used to love Saturn, for all it's faults. Now, it's just another brand
with the same platforms, etc. GM neglected it, and then figured that the
way to fix it wasn't continued autonomy, but to 'roll' it up as just
another division.
IF their intention is to continue chevy as an "american" car company, and
they continue to provide Saturn platforms developed in Europe, then I can
see them developing Saturn into an import/european - fighter brand.

You know, what they thought about Oldsmobile 15-20 years ago??

It's a shame, I love Saturn, it's history, and what they were trying to
do...but it just all ended up wrong and past management never, ever
clearly defined the markets each division would go for. honestly, chevy,
pontiac, then olds as an import fighter (never worked out that way), and
then add Saturn to the mid-priced section?

Yeah, think about that and then ask why GM is where they are!
JP

 

[Dave]

The Eagle brand was discontinued after poor sales after several years.

 

[Sheldon]

Unions were a great idea way back when. Unfortunately, now the unions

I think unions are still needed. I think unions would do wonders for the
working conditions at Walmart.

Then Walmart becomes another GM. All Walmart has to do is pay appropriate
overtime.

That said, union rules and benefits have been a diaster for Ford, GM and
DC.

Not to the workers who worked for GM many years ago, are already retired and
dead.

What would you do if you were a GM employee?

I would understand that nobody is forcing me to work for GM, and realize
that some of what they are giving me is going up exponetionally and are out
of control, like health care.

And those workers would not want a pension?

Some of us put money away every month for the future, and many GM employees
make pretty damn good money, even without the perks.

Wherever is often domestic. The Toyota Sienna has the highest domestic
content of any US vehicle, excluding big trucks and probably Catapiler
products.

Basically, I'm just saying you can import car parts without paying any duty
or taxes. It's the entire car that has all those duties and taxes applied
to it. As a matter of fact, you can import some pretty outrageous and
exotic "kit" cars into the States for peanuts.

Are we? Hondas and Toyotas get better gas milage and have higher resale
value. Cost is more than what you pay at the dealer.

My neighbors Vette cost $4800 new. It's now worth about $100,000. Just
depends on the car, not where it's made. I've got a Porsche that's holding
it's own, but my Outback isn't worth even close to what it was when new.

Apparently the Ford 500, Freestyle and Fusion and pretty good cars. And
the F-150 is the best selling vehicle in the US. My 8.5 yr old Contour is
going strong for ove 125,000 mi (and I think will go strong for many more
miles).

'merican trucks will always be popular here. I haven't seen any Toyotas
running NASCAR, but it's still one of the most popular spectator sports in
the US. Heck, there are still people who won't buy Japanese or German cars
because of WW II.

I'm waiting to see what the Chinese have to offer, and you know it's coming.

 

[Jeff]

Then Walmart becomes another GM. All Walmart has to do is pay appropriate
overtime.

And provide reasonable work rules, benefits and wages.

Not to the workers who worked for GM many years ago, are already retired
and dead.

No, but they have been a disaster to the companies.

I would understand that nobody is forcing me to work for GM, and realize
that some of what they are giving me is going up exponetionally and are
out of control, like health care.

No, if I were an employee of GM, I would be fighting tooth and nail for more
wages, benefits and bigger pensions.

Some of us put money away every month for the future, and many GM
employees make pretty damn good money, even without the perks.

Yet, part of their contract is a pension. If GM agreed to a pension, GM
should provide it.

Basically, I'm just saying you can import car parts without paying any
duty or taxes. It's the entire car that has all those duties and taxes
applied to it. As a matter of fact, you can import some pretty outrageous
and exotic "kit" cars into the States for peanuts.

Yet Toyota doesn't have to do this, at least for the Siena.

My neighbors Vette cost $4800 new. It's now worth about $100,000. Just
depends on the car, not where it's made. I've got a Porsche that's
holding it's own, but my Outback isn't worth even close to what it was
when new.

Yet that Outback has a high value as a per cent of its purchase price than
most American cars, excluding collector cars, which are a different thing.

'merican trucks will always be popular here. I haven't seen any Toyotas
running NASCAR, but it's still one of the most popular spectator sports in
the US. Heck, there are still people who won't buy Japanese or German
cars because of WW II.

Toyota not only runs in Nascar, but they win there:
http://www.nascar.com/races/truck/2006/4/data/results_official.html.

That is the Craftsman truck series, but it is part of Nascar.

And Toyota will join the Nextel Cup and Busch series in 2007.

I'm waiting to see what the Chinese have to offer, and you know it's
coming.

I know it is coming.

Competition is good. It keeps down prices and improves quality.

Just look at what competition from Asia did to the quality of the American
car.

Jeff

 

[Guest]

I don't recall Chrysler discontinuing early any vehicles as a result of
the Mercedes takeover.

They killed the whole Eagle brand right away as I recall, though maybe
that was before Daimler got involved.[/QUOTE]
Yes, pre Mercedes.

Not long after, Plymouth his the
dust bin.

In Canada also pre Mercedes, perhaps in the USA. But after all that was
just a name, with the same cars sold as Dodge- at least in Canada.

There are often slight differences in Canadian car models. For example
my Father had a Canadian '49 Pontiac 6 which was actually a Chev with
the flat head Pontiac 6. When we visited the USA garage people there
found it quite a different car.

One of the things GM needs to do is to scrap at least 50% of the
brand/model combinations it has right now.

They sure do. Their model lineup is a confusing mess of overlapping
models with different names, but basically the same underneath the trim.

 

[Guest]

The first couple of years of the take over resulted in almost no major
changes in regard to the vehicles made by Chrysler. I don't have a list in
front of me but I subscribe to Car and Driver magazine. It's obvious that
Mercedes-Benz is now in the process of not making any models that are
losing money in terms of sales records. They are also installing engines
made by Mercedes in some of the Chrysler models.

As I see it it's Chrysler engines in Mercedes (the V8 Hemi) and Mercedes
drive trains in Chryslers; again the 300.
Now we have the Mercedes B200 and the Chrysler Caliber, both FWD with CV
transmission. I'd suggest the engine/drive train are from the Chrysler
side.
The B200 is almost twice the price of the Caliber, but much better
finished.

 

[Guest]

Chrysler
looks like a grouper fish with small windows.

I have a friend with a restored '56 Buick.
My the profile is so much like the 300 it must have influenced the
designers.
My 300 Magnum rental proved the visibility is poor. The rear window is
large, but so heavily tinted I couldn't see to park at night.

I didn't like it and my friend with us on the trip didn't either. He was
looking for a car and passed it up for a used 2004 Impalla.