STi or WRX? any recomendations?

  • Thread starter Karls Vladimir Peña
  • Start date
Dr. Rastis Fafoofnik said:
Oh dry up 2stroke....just READ all the problems posted RIGHT HERE and other
places, the 2.5 engines are complete crap. The cars require high
maintenance.The entire Subaru line is trouble prone, but especially the WRX
and the (pig)Sti.
Your just a "Brand loyal" druid...you think..if its made by Subaru it has to
be great....dream on...they are junk cars.

Please don't tell that to my '99 Outback
with 105k miles on it. I've owned it since
it was brand new and I've spent a grand
total of $600 on it. And it still runs
like new.

Face it Rast, you just hate Subaru. Why don't
you just tell us why?
 
If you hate Subarus that much, why are you posting here in the first place?
 
Byron Walter said:
So far I'm having very good luck with my '02 Audi A4 Avant... other than
getting a tire-destroying flat on the way to work today. And of course, with
AWD when one tire goes and there's significant wear, you gotta replace them
all:)

Have you checked the manual for your car? With the Torsen center diff on many Audis
(no idea what if any LS diff is in back), it might be a lot less sensitive to differences
in tire diameter than, for example a Subaru.
 
DR RASTIS FAF00FNIK" <(e-mail address removed)> Jan 18, 2005 at 06:35
AM

I
get
Read the comments.....ALL the comments before you make a decision to buy a
Subaru, especially the blowing head-gaskets issue.
This car WILL spend a fair amount of time in the dealer's shop. Your
trade-in/resale value is VERY LOW so expect to drive it into the ground.
Compared to other cars in the same price class, it WILL be faster. If
thats
the most important item, then by all means buy it.
All *I* can say is this...READ READ and READ whats been posted in here by
actual owners (and their multitude of problems).

You know, you remind me of the now obsolete cassingle - put in the tape &
it plays the same one song both sides over and over. What has happened to
make you loathe Subarus so much? We'd actually love to know once and for
all! In Aus they consistently top class comparisons and return above
average residuals and resale values. Do Fuli Heavy Industries build a
special 'bad' model for the US or are your homebuilt models far below
international standards ... or is it just you?

But back to the question. WRX is a quick, engaging and occasionally silly
everyday driver. STi is far more single focused than the WRX, quicker and
tighter in the right environment and much less compromising and
accommodating as an everyday drive, which will probably make it a royal
pain in some situations!. A friend of mine regularly does 3000km round
trips in his and still has his licence. How I'm not quite sure .... Your
money; your choice. Cheers
 
Dr. Rastis Fafoofnik said:
Oh dry up 2stroke....just READ all the problems posted RIGHT HERE and other
places, the 2.5 engines are complete crap. The cars require high
maintenance.The entire Subaru line is trouble prone, but especially the WRX
and the (pig)Sti.
Your just a "Brand loyal" druid...you think..if its made by Subaru it has to
be great....dream on...they are junk cars.

The data does not back up your opinion. As I mentioned earlier, the Impreza
line has a good repair record according to Consumer Reports which pools
thousands of owners. While CR is not the end-all of automotive information,
I would have more confidence in its data than your postings.

And the STi is a pig... a wild pig. It has a low center of gravity, can pull
like a Romania weight lifter on 'roids, and gut most other cars with its
razor-like handling.

I wish my Audi had that 2.5 liter engine!
 
David said:
Have you checked the manual for your car? With the Torsen center diff on many Audis
(no idea what if any LS diff is in back), it might be a lot less sensitive to differences
in tire diameter than, for example a Subaru.

It's not. New tire are on!
 
KLS said:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:41:48 GMT, "Byron Walter"

So true, but things could be a lot worse! I'm pleased to report that
my 98.5 A4 2.8Q remains a dream to drive and a reliable car; I've only
had to replace wear-related items (brakes, the rear wheel bearings,
and the radiator) as of 83,000 miles. I haven't experienced the
dreaded control arm problems or anything else, but granted, I did fork
over the $$ for the suggested water pump/timing belt/thermostat
changeout at about 68,000 miles. I lust after the 2005.5 A4 1.8Q with
the new nose, but I just can't financially justify that when I've got
a good Audi that's serving me so well in these western New York
winters. Our 1999 Legacy Outback is also a very good, reliable car,
but not as fun or safe to drive.

There's a guy at work that drives a 12 year old S line Audi (don't know
which model). He's past 175,000 miles with only routine maintenance. You
never know what you might get with an Audi so when you do manage to get a
good one it is wise to hang on to it.

BTW the 1.8t engine is supplanted with the new 2.0 turbo with improved
torque & hp. Best luck with your A4.
 
Karls Vladimir Peña said:
Do you dare to come all the way to the D.R. just to slap me?

Hey, I live in Ohio. Considering the weather here lately, I'd be knocking at
your door in an instant!

The DR... please don't rub that in right now (new winter storm on the way).
 
Oh dry up 2stroke....just READ all the problems posted RIGHT HERE and
other places, the 2.5 engines are complete crap. The cars require high
maintenance.The entire Subaru line is trouble prone, but especially the
WRX and the (pig)Sti.
Your just a "Brand loyal" druid...you think..if its made by Subaru it
has to be great....dream on...they are junk cars.

Product newsgroups attract problem posts because that's where people come
for advice and solutions. Just because many of the posts are problem related
doesn't mean that Subaru is a bad choice.

What do YOU drive and if Subaru is so bad why don't you offer suggestions
for similarily equipped vehicles that YOU think are a better choice?
 
Dr. Rastis Fafoofnik said:
Oh dry up 2stroke....just READ all the problems posted RIGHT HERE and other
places, the 2.5 engines are complete crap. The cars require high
maintenance.The entire Subaru line is trouble prone, but especially the WRX
and the (pig)Sti.
Your just a "Brand loyal" druid...you think..if its made by Subaru it has to
be great....dream on...they are junk cars.
Rast,

Don't you drive a FORD? If so, I can't imagine how one can complain about
Subaru when you drive a Found On Road Dead.
 
Well, if you could see the blue sea out my window, you'd burst into tears.
About 28 degrees C outside, so it's not that hot.
 
Karls Vladimir Peña said:
Well, if you could see the blue sea out my window, you'd burst into tears.
About 28 degrees C outside, so it's not that hot.

Sounds like you are the "man with the plan". Let us know what you end up
buying and hope you do well with whichever car you purchase.
 
Well, if you could see the blue sea out my window, you'd burst into tears.
About 28 degrees C outside, so it's not that hot.

28 C, you need the STi its got the Intercooler spray to keep the turbo
working at maximum efficiency when it gets hot.

STi it is then.

R
 
Hello all! I'm new to this group and planning to get a new subaru really
soon. But It's a difficult choice, I really like the way the WRX I tested
drives, it's really mindblowing how can you get such exciting performance
from such a cheap (relatively) car. I've never tested the STi, but
according to the specs, it should be waaay better. Is this true?

And most important, do the improvements justify the price tag? or can I
get similar performance with the WRX + the price difference in aftermarket
accesories? Any comments are really apreciated.

Karls

I have owned a WRX (an '02, Canadian model) and recently traded it in
for a Canadian-spec '04 STi (300 HP 2.5-litre engine, normal non-HID
lights, radio/etc standard instead of just an option, etc.)

Impressions are going to be limited to the differences I felt between the
two vehicles, I'm afraid;

Suspension and Ride "Feel"

The STi ride is *much, much* harsher. It's hard enough, especially on the
stock tires, that I can joke to people, "You'll chip a tooth driving over
a dime." The suspension is ridiculously stiff and rigid in comparison to
the WRX. Every bump in the road rattles the cabin, every line on the
pavement gets tracked and pulls the car side to side, and driving it
around on normal city roads (i.e. crappy unmaintained pavement) requires
constant concentration and attention to the steering wheel. If you let
your mind wander, so will the car.

At highway speeds, things even up a little, but in wet conditions the
stock tires are moderate to inadequate. Many of the STi drivers I'm aware
of have nasty accidents because they pull stupid stunts like shifting in
the middle of a tight corner on wet roads. (More on STi shifting and
steering further down.) As far as I'm aware, I'm the only STi in my area
that hasn't had a serious accident yet.

Steering and Control (a.k.a. Shifting, Steering and Control)

The STi has a limited-slip front differential, which the standard WRX does
*not.* This translates into *loads* more understeer in the STi, to the
point where the difference is palpable. When you test-drive, take it
around a corner and blip the throttle a few times. Each time, you'll
notice the car pulls *hard* to the outside of the curve. If you're not
careful, this kind of behaviour in a car can get an inexperienced driver
into loads of trouble. (See above note re: accidents.)

There is a Japanese motoring show I watched recently which describes
(after translation) why they did that, and they claim that while the front
differential and design of the car introduces a great deal of understeer,
apparently it's done on purpose for road "cupping" and grip and stability
at high speeds--for rally conditions, in other words.

The stock WRX has loads of body roll as well. I have a picture of a friend
whipping around a corner in a WRX wagon, and at the apex of the curve the
inside wheels are almost off the ground and the car itself is at an almost
25-30 degree rolling angle from the horizontal.

The STi has almost no body roll by comparison. Oh sure, there's some, and
if you steer right out to the point where the stock summer tires slip in
hot dry weather and your car is full of people, you're going to notice it.
But it feels tighter, cleaner, grippier. Going around corners is as
surefooted as you're going to get. There is no nervousness in the car. At
the limits, if you ever get the gall to approach them, it's a fraction of
a degree between "cleanly drifting" and "write-off". You have lots of
notice that the stock tires are losing grip, but it's at such high speeds
that even plenty of notice won't save you from the corners it would
normally, comfortably take.

Shifting in the STi is completely different from the WRX. Whereas the WRX
feels clumsy and mushy sometimes, the STi, though a little rubbery, feels
tighter and stronger. For example, if the transmission is cold, you're
going to have a tough time downshifting--even just to second--without
being overly rough on the shifter. There is also a noticeable
shuddering when pulling away from a light in first when it's cold, unless
you're very careful and gentle. This is normal. Once things warm up it
gets easier and smoother.

At higher speeds, the sixth gear of the STi is *very* nice to have,
although the seemingly shorter gear ratios at lower speeds means you're
going to be shifting--all day, every day, every waking moment you're in
the STi it seems you're shifting it from gear to gear. Not to say this
is bad: in corners it means you have lots of gears to choose from when you
enter them, which is good. On a recent episode of Fifth Gear, Tiff was
complaining that the Mercielago had basically one gear all the way to
60mph, and that was first, and that was limiting what he could do in the
corners. The STi suffers from no such lack of gears. Rev it up and shift
it down and you can pull all kinds of fun stunts in corners. Shift it
again and you have a nice chunk of immediately-available power to get you
back up to speed. On the STi, there's never a point where you find
yourself wishing for a gear in between the ones you just shifted through.

If you're not careful, the stiffness of the shifter can also be a little
disconcerting, but *DON'T* pull it out of the halfway-in point and try
again. You'll feel (and hear) what sounds like grinding. I've only
experienced this once, and the sinking feeling in my stomach guaranteed
it'll never happen again.

Oh, one final note for this part: the dealership I have is brutally honest
with me, or is at least transparent, at all times. My dealer, for example,
told me I should use downshifting as much as possible to brake, that
fixing the brakes in some cases has cost the owner more than fixing the
engine. Yikes.

Changing Tires

On my STi I realised that as another Canadian winter approached I'd have
to change the stock summer tires on my STi to either a good all-season or
a winter tire. I opted for the Pirelli PZero Nero M+S Ultra High
Performance All Season. On the first ride I noticed an immediate
difference. While the stock Bridgestone Potenza RE070's had a super-stiff
sidewall, the Pirellis felt mushy and weak. By comparison, the difference
was like that between a on train rail versus being at the top of a
jack-in-the-box. Mushy, bulbous, shock-absorbing, quiet. As someone who
pays an almost paranoid attention to his car, I can say that I was worried
about the Pirellis after getting used to the Potenzas. It's quite
unsettling.

I shouldn't have been concerned. It turns out the grip on the Pirellis in
all but dry conditions is vastly superior, and since the expected
treadwear is about four times what the RE070's is and I live in an
extremely rainy location, I *might* just leave the Pirellis on in the
coming summer months anyway. Plus the ride is a little more bearable
and smooth for my passengers.

Unfortunately, to get the kind of performance out of the car that it's
capable of delivering, you *have* to buy the ultra-high performance all
seasons, or maximum performance summers, or rally-day winters that
wouldn't last more than a couple months on a dry road. These types of
tires are extremely expensive--but buying anything less would be a
disservice to the car and yourself.

Problems I Personally Saw

The WRX I drove burst a head gasket. Apparently it was a known problem,
but in my area my head gasket, and that of another guy who was a
hardcore racing driver, were the only ones the dealership saw busted up at
the time I brought mine in. I guess we just drove our cars harder, but I
never got an answer as to why until I learned about it again only
very recently. It has to do with radiator fluid. Apparently there are
certain standard additives that wreck our particular head gaskets, and now
that they're aware of the problem, modern WRXs from reputable dealers are
no longer suffering from it. (Apparently they now add a standard
conditioner which "fixes" the problem. Stop-leak maybe?)

The STi has so far been very well-behaved, and really the only "problems"
I've been having, if you could call them that, are that the gas mileage is
terrible on my STi and other stuff (like tires) I have to buy for it are
also rich-man-only expensive. Honestly--worse mileage than a 2001
Corvette? WTF? I personally think it's worth it, but just driving to work
and around town locally I spend about $200/month in gas, Canadian. When I
first got the car I spent over $800 in gas in a month, and over $1500
after two months. That's a lot of money. The manual recommends 94 octane
fuel but says that "92 or 91" will do *only* if 94 isn't available in my
area. I keep a pile of octane boosters in my trunk just in case, but the
point is, gas for the STi is expensive. Gas for my WRX was nowhere near
what I'm paying now.

The change to Pirellis cost me $1300 for all four tires (included was the
installation,) plus $60 for a laser wheel alignment. That's a helluva
chunk of change to blow on tires.

The Look

Something that really bothers a lot of people when they consider buying an
STi is the almost cartoonish spoiler and the massive hoodscoop. I've
literally been sitting at a gas station fueling up (yet again) and had
people shout out their windows, "Wow, what comic book did you drive that
thing out of?" In my case it was admiration from a fellow car enthusiast,
but it does make you think about the look of the car.

Those two features are a big stumbling block for the older drivers who own
or want to own an STi. On a recent Tuner Transformation (TV show about
monstrously tuning up cars) the feature car was an STi and the driver
wanted a smidgen more power but mainly to get rid of the hoodscoop and the
spoiler.

I believe Subaru knows what they're doing. I shudder to think what a
missing spoiler is going to do for that guy's aerodynamics.

I think appearance should be next-to-meaningless to an STi enthusiast. The
way a car "looks" should only be of concern to people who are concerned
with looks, and there are far better-"looking" cars out there for them to
lavish their attentions on.

I mean really--who cares how a car looks? Both the spoiler and the
hoodscoop are functional, so leave them be unless you're going to get a
front-mounted intercooler. But then what about winter conditions and
rocks and gunk clogging up the front grill? Who are we to presume that we
know better about what's good for a Subaru than Subaru themselves?

Conclusion

If you aren't an enthusiast who's willing to grit your teeth and
psych yourself up every time you climb into your car, don't waste your
time with an STi. If you're not willing to sacrifice your wife's riding
comfort, stick with the WRX. If you're not willing to see the STi drain
your financial future away in gas money and the cost of tires and
regular maintenance, ignore the siren call of the STi.

If you're not willing to face up to the fact that the vehicle's
intoxicating power comes close to luring you into personally
life-threatening situations on occasion, and you can't control yourself in
competitive environments, it would be safer for you to stick with a WRX.

A BMW M3 driver (the fast, 2001 and later kind) I know had to sell his car
because he felt that he couldn't trust himself behind the wheel to stay
within safe limits. He would race any supercar that came along, careening
around corners at 200kph+ and he felt that he was putting his life at risk
as a result of his ultra-competitive nature. If you are not completely
confident that you can keep yourself under control based not on
speculation but actual experiences you've already been through, do
*NOT* buy an STi, for your own safety.

If the STi is going to be your only car and you're not a hard-core
rallysport, willing-to-fork-money-out by-the-bushel, STi enthusiast who
thinks the STi is near the pinnacle of modern vehicular development, buy a
WRX instead. You won't be sorry.

Otherwise, on behalf of all the other insane STi owners out there, welcome
to the club!
 
And you can sure make that WRX fast. My only WRX wagon owning friend
made his into a 12 second car (standing start 1/4 mile times), which is
faster than a stock STi.

Be sure and let us know how long that WRX lasts for him! ;)
 
I've still got good tread life on them after 10K miles, but they still
suck. I don't know why the Potenza RE92 is such a popular OEM tire.
Manufacturers must get a really good deal on them. I've also heard that
they do result in better fuel economy, which could be a reason (to help
with EPA fuel economy tests).

RE092s do suck. On my old WRX I went through a couple sets of them, and I
have to say--BLARGH. They're nice and grippy to start out with, but after
about 8K-10K, suddenly they turn into slippery, squealy crud. I was
disappointed with those tires on many occasions, and I never felt very
safe driving around on them.
I'd like to scrap them. I'm thinking maybe the ContiExtremeContact or
Pirelli PZero Nero M+S.

Get the Pirellis. Cheaper, and reported better performance and tread wear.
I have a set on my STi now, and I've driven them enough to be comfortable
with what they're capable of. Far superior to the OEM RE070s on my STi in
everything but dry weather, and infinitely better than the RE092s from my
WRX.

In the rain, the Pirellis are just amazing. Truly amazing. If I hit a big
puddle, I "feel" it far less than I did with the RE070s. Those little
arcing grooves seem to make a big difference. They impart a great deal of
confidence in the weather around here, and their grip on snow is great.
They're certainly no winter tire, and if you're not careful the power of
the WRX or STi will spin you right off the road, but they're the best
all-season I've ever experienced. So far. Plus their dry-pavement grip is
astounding. :)
 
It has to do with radiator fluid. Apparently there are certain standard
additives that wreck our particular head gaskets, and now that they're
aware of the problem, modern WRXs from reputable dealers are no longer
suffering from it. (Apparently they now add a standard conditioner which
"fixes" the problem. Stop-leak maybe?)

BTW; my information here is most likely incorrect. I will let everyone
know if I experience anything like this in my STi. :)
 
k. ote. said:
Hello all! I'm new to this group and planning to get a new subaru really
soon. But It's a difficult choice, I really like the way the WRX I tested
drives, it's really mindblowing how can you get such exciting performance
from such a cheap (relatively) car. I've never tested the STi, but
according to the specs, it should be waaay better. Is this true?
[snip]

I have owned a WRX (an '02, Canadian model) and recently traded it in
for a Canadian-spec '04 STi (300 HP 2.5-litre engine, normal non-HID
lights, radio/etc standard instead of just an option, etc.)

Impressions are going to be limited to the differences I felt between the
two vehicles, I'm afraid;

[massive snip]
If the STi is going to be your only car and you're not a hard-core
rallysport, willing-to-fork-money-out by-the-bushel, STi enthusiast who
thinks the STi is near the pinnacle of modern vehicular development, buy a
WRX instead. You won't be sorry.

Otherwise, on behalf of all the other insane STi owners out there, welcome
to the club!

Thanks for the most comprehensive real-world review I've seen to date. It
has (for good or bad) turned me firmly away from the STi. I personally want
Subaru to make a Legacy GT coupe--and that doesn't look like a McJapanese
car.

-John
 
Thanks for the most comprehensive real-world review I've seen to date. It
has (for good or bad) turned me firmly away from the STi. I personally want
Subaru to make a Legacy GT coupe--and that doesn't look like a McJapanese
car.

-John
If you drive them side-by-side, I will promise you, if you have the
money, you WILL buy the STi. Even if you don't have the money you
will find a way to buy it! For two cars that have similar names they
have almost nothing in common. The STi has way more fun factor than
the WRX but is less suited to old bones like mine for a daily driver.
And my wife hated it.

SilverFXT
"Hey you just got smoked by an SUV!"
 

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