I'm Tired Of These Ungrateful Hurricane Victims

If the Democrats had been in control in Washington, the same results would
have
happened in New Orleans and the Gulf Coast. The Republicans would be the
ones pointing fingers and blaming the Democratic president. It is all

Can anyone imagine Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, LBJ, of John F Kennedy
doing the same piss poor job that Bush did? Every Democratic Presidential
candidate in the last 50 years and at least half of the Republicans would
have done a better job. Here is the difference between LBJ's response to
a ordinary hurricane in New Orleans contrasted with Bush's response to
a disaster with the impact of Hiroshima.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9287435
Sept. 19, 2005 issue - In September 1965, a massive hurricane hit New Orleans.
By the next day the president, a Texan in a time of war, was in the city
visiting a shelter. With no electricity in the darkness there, Lyndon Baines
Johnson held a flashlight to his face and proclaimed, "This is the president of
the United States and I'm here to help you!" Almost precisely 40 years later,
when another horrific hurricane hit the city, the president was, again, a Texan
in wartime. But rather than hurry to New Orleans from his Texas ranch, George
W. Bush decided, three days after Katrina hit, to fly back to Washington
first.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Your right, there should be a federal plan to house the homeless including
victims of disasters(which is what these people are...they would only be
refugees

A pre-existing plan would have been even better. But since there wasn't one,
any President with an ounce of common sense would have on TUESDAY MORNING
ordered a national plan to coordinate the refugee flow. And he would be on
national TV asking every city and town in the 48 states to estimate their
shelter capacity.

is logistical. You first move everyone out of harms way and then you
worry about a more permanent solution. There are already people in

You first ship them to a staging area if necessary and and then check
your database to find the nearest place in the 48 states which still
has shelter space. You don't ship them in buses to the same cities
whose mayors have already reported they have run out of shelter space
and then make that area's mayor or governor call around the other 47
states to find space.
You obviously don't know much about earthquakes or nuclear bombs.
They expect NO to be habitable again in a year or so....no fall out

Which is completely irrelevent to the immediate crisis.

Okay, now you are just being a drama queen.

The evacuation of an entire city is not a "drama". The New Orleans disaster
affected a lot more people than 9/11 did. If every man, woman, and child in a
major city has to leave suddenly and a million people lose their homes and jobs
it really doesn't matter much (logistically) why they have to leave.

Wow, you must be even madder at Clinton.

By all accounts FEMA was in very good shape before Bush butchered its
budget because of his 'smaller government' crap, chased away the career
professionals and stuffed it full of incompetent personal cronies and
partisan political commissars the same way Bush has FEMA-ized the CIA,
Treasury Department, State Department, and other critical government agencies.

We have been dealing with
hurricanes for a long time and yet we never had an office of homeland
security until Bush.

That's because we never had a big terrorist attack until Bush. But this time
instead of wasting 7 precious minutes Bush wasted 3 precious days. And now a
full four years later the whole world knows that America is even _less_
prepared now than four years ago. Its scary to realize that the terrorists
must have noticed Bush's incompetence too.

and their pets for two weeks in case of such a disaster. I am not going
to pretend that this would have turned out differently under any other
sitting
president.

Everyone with a clue in _both_ parties knows that Bush fucked up. There
is no way in hell that Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter or LBJ or John F
Kennedy or a competent Republican for that matter would have done the
same piss poor job Bush did in responding to the biggest natural disaster
in American history. I used to think that Jimmy Carter was incompetent
but there is no doubt Mr. Carter would have done a far better job than Bush.
When Jimmy Carter created FEMA he promised the country that FEMA would
always be (1) non political (2) fully funded (3) staffed with experienced
people. President Carter recently pointed out that Bush broke all three
promises about FEMA he made to the country.
 
1) FEMA responded faster to Katrina than it did to any disasters during his

By all accounts FEMA was in much better shape before Bush slashed the budget
and chased out most of the top career professionals.

2) Bush got to the Gulf area sooner than Clinton got to OK City.

Hello?? Oklahama city was not a situation that created a million
refugees without homes or jobs. It is absurd to compare the two as
if they were the same.

3) When 1,000 people died in Chicago ('95 heat wave), where was he? Where
was the outcry? The outrage? The accusations of racism?

Don't know. I don't remember 1000 people dying so either you are exaggerating
or the media didn't do its job. Again this hardly compares with an
entire city in chaos and a million refugees homeless, jobless, and running
out of money.

4) Spending on poverty programs is up under Bush.

Only if you mean foreign anti-AIDS programs in Africa pushed by religious
groups (and Iraq spending). That's not necessarily a bad thing, but where
is the help for Americans?

5) Poverty percentage was 13.7% under Clinton; it's 12.7% today.

LOL. Poverty has gone up _every_ single year under George W. Bush.
6) Government revenues are up under Bush;

Government revenues are FAR below the projected expectations in 2000.
Deficits have soared sky high and the entire amount of the tax cuts for
millionaires was borrowed from the Chinese Communist government
money was NOT a factor in the
disaster or the response.

It WAS a factor. Bush slashed FEMA's budget and was so cheap that he chopped
off $65 million of the $105 million the Army Corp of Engineers was going to
shore up the New Orleans levees with because he wanted a 'smaller government'
(even though he hypocritically increased spending much faster than any previous
president).

But you know what? All you far rightwingers are guilty of a "pre-Katrina"
mentality. You just don't get it. Katrina is not about politics as usual.
Over a thousand Americans are D-E-A-D. Over a million Americans lost
their homes jobs overnight. There will likely be long term repercussions.
And every idiot who thinks their political party is always right and cannot
admit when mistakes are made is a part of the problem.
 
By all accounts FEMA was in much better shape before Bush slashed the
budget and chased out most of the top career professionals.

Congress stuck it in Homeland Security, depleted its authority AND set its
funding.
Hello?? Oklahama city was not a situation that created a million
refugees without homes or jobs. It is absurd to compare the two as
if they were the same.

Willy NEVER reacted to terrorist attacks, so I guess you're right.
Don't know. I don't remember 1000 people dying so either you are
exaggerating or the media didn't do its job. Again this hardly
compares with an
entire city in chaos and a million refugees homeless, jobless, and
running
out of money.

Google it. (I or someone posted a link to a story just a few days ago.)
Only if you mean foreign anti-AIDS programs in Africa pushed by
religious groups (and Iraq spending). That's not necessarily a bad
thing, but where
is the help for Americans?

DOMESTIC spending on entitlement programs are UP under Bush.
LOL. Poverty has gone up _every_ single year under George W. Bush.
Cite?


Government revenues are FAR below the projected expectations in 2000.
Deficits have soared sky high and the entire amount of the tax cuts
for millionaires was borrowed from the Chinese Communist government

2000? Federal revenues (after the tax cuts) are UP under Bush.
It WAS a factor. Bush slashed FEMA's budget and was so cheap that he
chopped off $65 million of the $105 million the Army Corp of
Engineers was going to shore up the New Orleans levees with because
he wanted a 'smaller government' (even though he hypocritically
increased spending much faster than any previous president).

Local politicians and contractors pocketed money meant for improvements.
That's one reason why the New York Times editorialized AGAINST increased
funding in NOLA years ago.
But you know what? All you far rightwingers are guilty of a
"pre-Katrina" mentality. You just don't get it. Katrina is not
about politics as usual.

Then why were all the usual suspects fawning all over themselves trying to
promote THEIR pet political peeves literally within HOURS of the storm.
Over a thousand Americans are D-E-A-D. Over
a million Americans lost
their homes jobs overnight. There will likely be long term
repercussions.

Of course there will. NATURAL DISASTERS tend to do that.
And every idiot who thinks their political party is always right and
cannot admit when mistakes are made is a part of the problem.

I agree with your last statement, at least.
 
Can anyone imagine Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, LBJ, of John F Kennedy
doing the same piss poor job that Bush did?

Actually, Bush did better than Clinton did with Andrew. Got the feds
there faster and provided a LOT more help.

But don't let that stand in the way of a good rant, eh?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
Presidents and their cluster-humps.
Can anyone imagine Bill Clinton,

Mogadishu? The Chicago heat wave?
Jimmy Carter,

Double-digit inflation? Odd and even gas days? Wear your sweater indoors?
The hostage rescue in Iran?

The Great Society's War on Poverty, that has cost more than all actual wars
combined, and with the result that there's as much poverty as there ever
was, but it costs more? Khe Sanh? The Paris "Peace" talks?
of John F Kennedy

The Bay of Pigs? The Vietnam war?
doing the same piss poor job that Bush did?

The fingers will point, the only thing that changes is the leftward or
rightward direction of the pointing, depending on who grabbed the top of the
bat last.
Every Democratic Presidential
candidate in the last 50 years and at least half of the Republicans would
have done a better job.

Your omniscience is as impressive as your clairvoyance. But your
unreasoning hatred of Bush predominates.
Here is the difference between LBJ's response to
a ordinary hurricane in New Orleans contrasted with Bush's response to
a disaster with the impact of Hiroshima.

The disaster, as you imply, was unprecedented. Yet you cite LBJ's response
to "an ordinary hurricane" as precedent.

I submit to you that most of the failures in Katrina were a direct result of
the "learned helplessness" and the resultant reliance on the "gummint" for
everything that redounded from LBJ's monkey-like tinkering with a formerly
great nation under the guise of creating his Great Society.

Ronald Reagan famously said "The kind of government that is strong enough to
give you everything you need is also strong enough to take away everything
that you have". We have evolved a government that can almost do the one and
more than do the other.
 
When Jimmy Carter created FEMA he promised the country that FEMA would
always be (1) non political (2) fully funded (3) staffed with experienced
people. President Carter recently pointed out that Bush broke all three
promises about FEMA he made to the country.

So, Bush is supposed to keep Carter's promises. Interesting.

FEMA, like many government boondoggles, was designed from the ground up to
be a top-heavy bureaucracy and an incompetent clusterfuck. The "experience"
in FEMA was entrenched, non-elected (the non-political piece) and therefore
unaccountable bureaucrats. It takes seven bureaucrats to do the work of one
actual worker, and if one of the seven doesn't give a shit that day, the
work doesn't get done. The main function of a bureaucracy is not to do the
mission that the acronym of their organization implies, but to assure the
survival of the bureaucracy.
 
Don't know. I don't remember 1000 people dying

And so therefore they didn't die.
You just don't get it. Katrina is not about politics as usual.
Over a thousand Americans are D-E-A-D.

It would have been a lot more fun for you to write ten thousand as NOLA's
mayor initially and hysterically projected, but yeah, they're D-E-A-D. As
dead as the ones that jumped from the WTC on 9/11/01, and your lot blamed
Bush for that, too.
There will likely be long term repercussions.

Yeah. There will be a democrat in the White House in 2009 then everything
will be OK.
 
i'm so glad you got that off your chest .

now stick it where it belongs - this newsgroup is SUPPOSED to be about subarus.

if you're too stupid/ignorant/rude to understand the name of the
newsgroup (you know, the thingie at the top of the screen that says
"ALT.AUTOS.SUBARU"), why the hell should anyone want to read your
half-baked redneck crossposts?

just keep right on truckin' until find a newsgroup that has "rant" in it...
 
Rant away some where else PLEASE
tom klein said:
i'm so glad you got that off your chest .

now stick it where it belongs - this newsgroup is SUPPOSED to be
about subarus.

if you're too stupid/ignorant/rude to understand the name of the
newsgroup (you know, the thingie at the top of the screen that says
"ALT.AUTOS.SUBARU"), why the hell should anyone want to read your
half-baked redneck crossposts?

just keep right on truckin' until find a newsgroup that has "rant"
in it...
 
Actually, Bush did better than Clinton did with Andrew. Got the feds
there faster and provided a LOT more help.

Bullshit. Bush himself (who has never ever admitted mistakes before) admitted
he did a poor job. And Katrina was nothing like a regular hurricane, it was
more like Hiroshima. An entire city was destroyed. Every man, woman, and
child in the area became homeless overnight. It was clear by Tuesday that ONE
MILLION refugees suddenly had no homes to go to, when Bush was so utterly
clueless he gave a speech on Iraq. There's no way in hell would Clinton or any
Democrat or any person with common sense would have done the piss poor job Bush
did during the Katrina crises.
 
Bush himself (who has never ever admitted mistakes before) admitted
he did a poor job. And Katrina was nothing like a regular hurricane,
it was
more like Hiroshima<<

He did a fine job. The federal gov;t has no obligation to cover a
states responsibility. The hurricane did little. It was the broken
levees- a state and local responsibility that did most damage.
Democrat or any person with common sense would have done the piss poor
job Bush
did during the Katrina crises. <<

Now NO will be a nice city since the poor and criminals are residing
elsewhere. Unfortunaltely the herd of worthless biomass was relocated
instead of being thinned out.
 
Presidents and their cluster-humps.

All your comparisons are apples and oranges
Mogadishu?

Mogadishu was not a major American crises. Compare it to Bush's Iraq fiasco
instead. It was started by Bush. And Clinton handled it a lot better
than Bush handled Iraq.
Double-digit inflation?

As opposed to Bush's _triple_ digit price inflation for gasoline? The worse
joblessness since the Great Depression? Hyperinflation of the national debt
and trade deficits? Borrowing boatloads of money from the Chinese Communist
government to finance his big tax windfall for the rich?

Odd and even gas days? Wear your sweater indoors?

You mean like when Bush just told everybody to conserve gas?
The hostage rescue in Iran?

The entire chain of disasters in Iraq?

LOL. We already KNOW how LBJ would likely have responded.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9287435
Sept. 19, 2005 issue - In September 1965, a massive hurricane hit New Orleans.
By the next day the president, a Texan in a time of war, was in the city
visiting a shelter. With no electricity in the darkness there, Lyndon Baines
Johnson held a flashlight to his face and proclaimed, "This is the president of
the United States and I'm here to help you!" Almost precisely 40 years later,
when another horrific hurricane hit the city, the president was, again, a Texan
in wartime. But rather than hurry to New Orleans from his Texas ranch, George
W. Bush decided, three days after Katrina hit, to fly back to Washington
first.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The disaster, as you imply, was unprecedented. Yet you cite LBJ's response
to "an ordinary hurricane" as precedent.

Yes exactly. LBJ was instantly on the ball during an _ordinary_ hurricane,
while Bush was cluelessly oblivious for 3 days to a much more serious crises.

I submit to you that most of the failures in Katrina were a direct result of
the "learned helplessness" and the resultant reliance on the "gummint" for
everything that redounded from LBJ's monkey-like tinkering with a formerly
great nation under the guise of creating his Great Society.

LOL. For anyone who prefers a competent government over an incomptent
government, an effective government over an ineffective government,
and a good government over a corrupt government, especially during a crises,
the very worst thing they could possibly have done was vote for Bush. By all
accounts FEMA was in very good shape before Bush gutted the budget, chased away
the experienced professionals, and installed personal cronies with absolutely
no related experience. The "learned helplessness" was the direct result of
Bush destroying every government agency with a culture of cronyism and
corruption. From FEMA to the CIA to the Treasury and State Departments, the
story is the same. Experience careers professionals have been purged and
replaced by incompetent personal cronies and political commissars.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
The New York Times <http://www.nytimes.com/>
September 5, 2005

Killed by Contempt
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Each day since Katrina brings more evidence of the lethal ineptitude of
federal officials. I'm not letting state and local officials off the
hook, but federal officials had access to resources that could have made
all the difference, but were never mobilized.

Here's one of many examples: The Chicago Tribune reports that the U.S.S.
Bataan, equipped with six operating rooms, hundreds of hospital beds and
the ability to produce 100,000 gallons of fresh water a day, has been
sitting off the Gulf Coast since last Monday - without patients.

Experts say that the first 72 hours after a natural disaster are the
crucial window during which prompt action can save many lives. Yet
action after Katrina was anything but prompt. Newsweek reports that a
"strange paralysis" set in among Bush administration officials, who
debated lines of authority while thousands died.

What caused that paralysis? President Bush certainly failed his test.
After 9/11, all the country really needed from him was a speech. This
time it needed action - and he didn't deliver.

But the federal government's lethal ineptitude wasn't just a consequence
of Mr. Bush's personal inadequacy; it was a consequence of ideological
hostility to the very idea of using government to serve the public good.
For 25 years the right has been denigrating the public sector, telling
us that government is always the problem, not the solution. Why should
we be surprised that when we needed a government solution, it wasn't
forthcoming?

Does anyone remember the fight over federalizing airport security? Even
after 9/11, the administration and conservative members of Congress
tried to keep airport security in the hands of private companies. They
were more worried about adding federal employees than about closing a
deadly hole in national security.

Of course, the attempt to keep airport security private wasn't just
about philosophy; it was also an attempt to protect private interests.
But that's not really a contradiction. Ideological cynicism about
government easily morphs into a readiness to treat government spending
as a way to reward your friends. After all, if you don't believe
government can do any good, why not?

Which brings us to the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In my last
column, I asked whether the Bush administration had destroyed FEMA's
effectiveness. Now we know the answer.

Several recent news analyses on FEMA's sorry state have attributed the
agency's decline to its inclusion in the Department of Homeland
Security, whose prime concern is terrorism, not natural disasters. But
that supposed change in focus misses a crucial part of the story.

For one thing, the undermining of FEMA began as soon as President Bush
took office. Instead of choosing a professional with expertise in
responses to disaster to head the agency, Mr. Bush appointed Joseph
Allbaugh, a close political confidant. Mr. Allbaugh quickly began trying
to scale back some of FEMA's preparedness programs.

You might have expected the administration to reconsider its hostility
to emergency preparedness after 9/11 - after all, emergency management
is as important in the aftermath of a terrorist attack as it is
following a natural disaster. As many people have noticed, the failed
response to Katrina shows that we are less ready to cope with a
terrorist attack today than we were four years ago.

But the downgrading of FEMA continued, with the appointment of Michael
Brown as Mr. Allbaugh's successor.

Mr. Brown had no obvious qualifications, other than having been Mr.
Allbaugh's college roommate. But Mr. Brown was made deputy director of
FEMA; The Boston Herald reports that he was forced out of his previous
job, overseeing horse shows. And when Mr. Allbaugh left, Mr. Brown
became the agency's director. The raw cronyism of that appointment
showed the contempt the administration felt for the agency; one can only
imagine the effects on staff morale.

That contempt, as I've said, reflects a general hostility to the role of
government as a force for good. And Americans living along the Gulf
Coast have now reaped the consequences of that hostility.

The administration has always tried to treat 9/11 purely as a lesson
about good versus evil. But disasters must be coped with, even if they
aren't caused by evildoers. Now we have another deadly lesson in why we
need an effective government, and why dedicated public servants deserve
our respect. Will we listen?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ronald Reagan famously said

Ronald Reagan much more famously hyperinflated the national debt and
created more new government spending (debt interest payments and military
spending which is what most of your income tax money goes for) than any other
President until the current one.

"The kind of government that is strong enough to
give you everything you need is also strong enough to take away everything
that you have".

This is so damn idiotic I don't know where to begin. The government is
and always was and always will be 'strong enough to take away that you
have'. The GOP cutting FEMA's budget in the name of a 'smaller government'
doesn't have the slightest affect on the government's police enforcement
power. The only defense individuals have is their constituional rights,
which are under continual assault from champion of Big Brother Government
call the GOP.
 
So, Bush is supposed to keep Carter's promises. Interesting.

You missed the whole point. For anybody who wanted a competent, effective
and/or good government instead of an incompetent, ineffective and corrupt
government, the very worst thing they could have done was vote for Bush.
Bush's culture of cronyism and corruption has fucked up FEMA (which by all
accounts was in very good shape under Clinton), the CIA, treasury dept,
state dept, and other critical agencies Americans rely on with lethal
imcompetance.

And the larger lesson here is that mindless macho talk has absolutely
nothing whatsover to do with competence in a President. Would anybody
select a surgeon or airline pilot because of mindless macho shit?
FEMA, like many government boondoggles, was designed from the ground up to
be a top-heavy bureaucracy and an incompetent clusterfuck. The "experience"
in FEMA was entrenched, non-elected (the non-political piece) and therefore
unaccountable bureaucrats.

LOL amazing how any defense of Bush usually involves contradicting Bush's own
explicit or implicit admissions of failure. After Bush's incompetent FEMA guy
was driven out of office by collective outrage, Bush _finally_ selected an
experience professional to be the FEMA director. The guy who was fired's only
"qualification" was director of the Arabian Horse Association. His real
qualification for this critical job was because he was the college roomate
of a Bush crony.
It takes seven bureaucrats to do the work of one
actual worker, and if one of the seven doesn't give a shit that day, the

It totally depends on the specific individuals and the mission involved --
in the case of both private and public sector organizations. There are
good and bad people working at _any_ private and public sector
organization, so lets stop this asinine shit that a private bureaucrat is
better than a public one. All you have to do is look at CEO salaries
(millions or tens of millions of $$$) versus the $400,000 salary for the
US president to know that private organizations can be outrageously
wasteful.
 
DOMESTIC spending on entitlement programs are UP under Bush.

Spending on useless pork is UP under Bush.
Spending on debt interest is UP under Bush.
Spending on "defense" is UP under Bush.

Bush has increased total spending and debt at a far faster rate than any other
president. But spending on the $105 million requested by the Army Corp of
engineers to shore up the levees and pumping stations in New Orleans was cut
because Bush wanted a 'smaller' government.
I agree with your last statement, at least.

Then we have something in common.
 
He did a fine job. The federal gov;t has no obligation to cover a
states responsibility. The hurricane did little. It was the broken
levees- a state and local responsibility that did most damage.

And even then orders of magnitude less damage than the completely
out to lunch Mayor and Governor were talking about. Instead of the
need for 10,000 body bags (as a start per the Mayor) for NOLA alone,
we have less than 1,000 for the entire state. No rapes were found
and instead of lockers full of dead people, Reuters notes less than
10 dead at the Dome, possibly two murders and one of them was
probably dumped from outside. So much for most of the reasons
Bush was getting dumped on for not moving quick enough.
 
Bullshit.

OK - then prove that Clinton got more aid to Florida faster than Bush
did to Lousiana (even though the transportation infrastructure was in
MUCH better shape in Florida). I lived through that one, BTW, and can
tell you that the feds did better after Katrina than Andrew, despite
your protestations to the contrary.

The difference is that Florida state and local government had a clue
how to deal with disasters, and the Floridians were by and large more
prepared than those in New Orleans. That doesn't make it Bush's fault
(again, contrary to your - snipped - protestations).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
Mark Hickey said:
The difference is that Florida state and local government had a clue
how to deal with disasters, and the Floridians were by and large more
prepared than those in New Orleans. That doesn't make it Bush's fault
(again, contrary to your - snipped - protestations).
I have a friend that teaches Emergency Management and is not
exactly what one would call a Bush supporter. I asked him what he
saw as the main difference between NOLA and 9-11. He gave me a
one-word answer: "Guiliani"
Look at how most of the pronouncements of the NOLA mayor have
been proved wrong. Found a combined 10 bodies at the convention
center and Superdome, only 2 were murders and one of these was
probably a dump job (what happened to the 30-40 bodies in the
freezer), they haven't been able to substantiate any rapes (both of
these per Reuters on Saturday). The 10 thousand body bags and we
will need more for NOLA turned out to be less than 1000 death state
wide. They also haven't been able to actually find a single chopper
pilot who was fired upon and this little rumor probably added to the
death toll because the pilots were unwilling to fly into hospitals,
etc. for evacuation purposes.
 
I have a friend that teaches Emergency Managemen

He had best teach you IP address management, "Island Gal". We'll keep this
as out li'l secret until you step out of line......again.
 

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