Automatic vs. Manual

[John A.]

hill, rather than choosing the correct gear, and using more moderate

throttle

i simply stated that in doing so, you are putting strain on the
mechanical components that need not be applied, if correct driving
techniques were used... .and that an automatic makes this decision for you

i was not suggesting you were wrong in the overall outcome of the
discussion... i agree that manuals SHOULD be more efficient than
autos.... IF DRIVEN CORRECTLY......

i WAS however disagreeing that you think it sensible to climb an incline
which would require a drop back in gears, in top gear with full
throttle. This totally negates the requirement for gears in mechanical
instruments. Gears are there to reduce the load and stress on
components, by the very definition, by gearing down those loads, and
shifting to more appropriate gearing when load & stresses dictate.

Happy wanking to you too... but always feels better with someone elses
hands

He did indeed write about going uphill in 5th gear at fifth gear...
completely negating the reason for having gears and keeping the engine in
it's most efficient operating/torque range.
I don't have any of the symptoms opponents of automatics seem to believe
they have. I've had both... still do.
Each has their place. In general, I think it comes down to personal
preference more than any real mechanical reason.
John

 

[John A.]

About the drive splitting. and here's why I say you're all wrong. My
understanding is that the auto can only vary the front to rear split up to
40:60 (hence, rear drive bias). The Manual is better and can vary the split
up to 90% front, OR rear.


So, let it rip. I'm ready for the replies

Tuan

You are not correct about the splits... check out the SOA websites. I also
have the technical manuals for the VDC/VTD/Manual transmissions.
John

 

[Spinifex]

YES.... i agree, in concept, but in practice, it's not that easy.

If you want to be in TOTAL control of your car, buy one that does NOT
include the following:

Automatic transmission
Electric Mirrors
Electric Windows
Electric Seats
Seat belts
Air bags
Vacuum Power assisted brakes
Remote Locking
Alarm
Central Locking
Remote Boot Release
Remote Fuel Filler Release
Cruise Control
Air Conditioning
Power Steering
Radio / Casette / CD (be in control of your OWN entertainment)
...... anything that assists the driver in ANY way......

in fact... go buy a T-Model Ford......guaranteed TOTAL control of your
vehicle then..... despite it being a Ford

Spinifex

 

[Rick Courtright]

I don't have any of the symptoms opponents of automatics seem to believe
they have. I've had both... still do.

No belief involved in my case, just personal experience. I'm glad yours
doesn't behave strangely.

The only auto I've ever owned (and it only came into the stable thru an
odd set of circumstances, else I still wouldn't own an auto) is behind a
V-6 on a Toyota Camry. It's got nearly as many buttons to push, along
with the shift lever, as the radio on my Subie. And it's about as
predictable as the weather six months from now.

OTOH, the g/f's Honda has an auto behind a 4 cyl (usually a bad combo,
IMO, but YMMV) that has no buttons. You put it in D4 and off you go. You
CAN, but don't have to, drop it to D3 if you don't want it to shift to
overdrive. But it's smart enough to know NOT to shift into OD at 35 mph.
Under ANY circumstances. It shifts at approximately the same speeds all
the time, and downshifts in a predictable fashion. The Toyota trans will
upshift any time it doesn't sense some throttle being applied, so it
might hit OD as low as 35 mph, and leaves the engine barely off idle,
about 1250 rpm. Try to accelerate from there with a stick, and you'll
quickly realize what a tach is telling you and why there's a range you
drive in for best overall performance. But will it downshift to
accommodate the situation? Well... depends on how it feels that day and
how it's been driven the week before.

I drive a variety of vehicles besides these two, and find the autos are
as different as night and day from one make/model to another. Some I'd
trust my life with, others I'm sure will get me killed, so I don't think
the criticisms of autos in general are unwarranted. But that's just my
opinion!

Rick

 

[Spinifex]

besides.... who mentioned anything about diesels???

we're talking about petrol powered Subaru motors... not diesels.

and putting full open-throttle load in top gear is NOT going to be the
most efficient in terms of fuel consumption, or load / stress on components

Spinifex

 

[Ricardo Montalban]

If driving an auto trans makes you that scared, I suggest you park
every car you own permanently.

If you can't understand what a simple automatic transmission is going
to do, I fail to see how you could drive a manual. If you spend any
amount of time driving a car, you quickly come to understand exactly
how it will perform and how it works.

 

[Spinifex]

Rick Courtright wrote:

Some I'd

trust my life with, others I'm sure will get me killed, so I don't think
the criticisms of autos in general are unwarranted. But that's just my
opinion!

Rick

Rick,

I agree with you in the general sense that SOME autos are very badly
programmed or designed.

However, I disagree on your above point.....the amount of time it takes
you to decide to change gear, hand off wheel, clutch in, change gear,
clutch out, hand back on wheel is considerable, compared to the time it
takes an auto to slip into another gear.

I dont think you can honestly believe that an auto could get you killed
for selecting an incorrect gear, whereas a manual gear change will not.

Surely it is much safer to keep BOTH hands on the wheel, in an emergency
situation, and let the auto trans. do the gear changing for you???
(and i mean EMERGENCY situation, which is what your post implied)

PS. coming from a racing background, I personally prefer manuals.....
but autos DO have their place...... I just think some of the REASONS for
your opinions are a little incorrect - even if i agree with the overall
opinion itself.

Spinifex

 

[David]

You are not correct about the splits..

If he isn't correct, what did he say that's wrong?

. check out the SOA websites.

The website is vague, and apparently wrong when it comes to describing the
base automatic AWD system. I think this discussion began with their claim that
it diverted torque to individual slipping wheels (instead it varies the front
rear torque split between some fixed limits they seem reluctant to document).

I also
have the technical manuals for the VDC/VTD/Manual transmissions.

The discussion wasn't about the VTD or VDC automatic system, it was
about the one with no center differential that comes with the less
expensive automatic cars. And that's the one that seems to have the
least credible information online.

 

[Rick Courtright]

If driving an auto trans makes you that scared, I suggest you park
every car you own permanently.
?????

If you can't understand what a simple automatic transmission is going
to do, I fail to see how you could drive a manual. If you spend any

Well, doggone, now! Sure glad I know what a "simple" automatic
transmission's going to do, otherwise I couldn't have put that last
million miles on manuals! Not sure what correlation you see between the
two, though! Everyone I know who can handle a stick can drive an auto
(though few like 'em!) Not everyone who can drive an auto can handle a
stick. Methinks I detect a hint of dyslexia in your argument.

So what does a "simple" auto do that I missed?

Rick

 

[Losiho]

I think you're all wrong!

About the drive splitting. and here's why I say you're all wrong. My
understanding is that the auto can only vary the front to rear split up to
40:60 (hence, rear drive bias). The Manual is better and can vary the split
up to 90% front, OR rear.


So, let it rip. I'm ready for the replies

Tuan

Subaru uses many different AWD systems, you can't make a blanket statement
like that
http://subaru.com.au/awd/flash.asp

 

[Yousuf Khan]

YES.... i agree, in concept, but in practice, it's not that easy.

If you want to be in TOTAL control of your car, buy one that does NOT
include the following:

in fact... go buy a T-Model Ford......guaranteed TOTAL control of your
vehicle then..... despite it being a Ford

And let's not forget manual chokes on carburetors, it can't be more than 40
years since we last still saw come cars with manual chokes. These days, the
manual chokes are gone, along with the entire carburetor.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Bruce Hoult]

And let's not forget manual chokes on carburetors, it can't be more than 40
years since we last still saw come cars with manual chokes.

Ten or fifteen years, tops.

 

[John A.]

If he isn't correct, what did he say that's wrong?


The website is vague, and apparently wrong when it comes to describing the
base automatic AWD system. I think this discussion began with their claim that
it diverted torque to individual slipping wheels (instead it varies the front
rear torque split between some fixed limits they seem reluctant to document).

The discussion wasn't about the VTD or VDC automatic system, it was
about the one with no center differential that comes with the less
expensive automatic cars. And that's the one that seems to have the
least credible information online.

The reason I was vague in my response is that this issue comes up over and
over again... and it's been discussed and explained over and over again.
Personally, I get tired of folks spitting out what they think is happening
when it's clear they haven't done any research on their own. I don't think
the Subaru website is vague at all.... and to say that it is 'apparently
wrong' is just absurd. No one knows their vehicles better than Subaru... or
are you implying they are being untruthful or just incompetent?
If you *really* want to learn exactly what is happening, then spend the $20
for three day access to all of the the tech manuals for your car and learn
on your own (that is if Subaru is still offering this... I downloaded all of
my service manuals about a year ago).
There are no Subarus that do not have a 'center' differential.
Regards,
John

 

[David]

There are no Subarus that do not have a 'center' differential.

There is no center differential in an automatic Forester.

I've looked over all the AWD descriptions on the Subaru website,
and there were places where there was more marketing hype
than clear accurate technical desciptions. The factory service manual
should be a much better source of info. From your previous post it
sounded like you didn't have the FSM for the subes that don't have the
center diff.

 

[Yousuf Khan]

There is no center differential in an automatic Forester.

I've looked over all the AWD descriptions on the Subaru website,
and there were places where there was more marketing hype
than clear accurate technical desciptions. The factory service manual
should be a much better source of info. From your previous post it
sounded like you didn't have the FSM for the subes that don't have the
center diff.

The Subaru Australia website has a good overview of their three AWD systems.
It's in Flash though, so you'll have to put up with some annoying load
times:

http://subaru.com.au/awd/

Yousuf Khan

 

[td]

Guys,

The "you're all wrong" was tongue in cheek. I was demonstrating that there
is yet another view/understanding of the AWD systems out there. the fact
that it has caused so much divided opinions is testament of the
misunderstanding and/or how many different systems are used by the same
company.

Without trying to be too Pollyanna about things, some people are just
getting a bit too serious about the debates on this group. shouldn't it be
more about sharing experiences and info. There is sooo much judgement here.
Subaru is not the best car maker and their products are not perfect. we
don't need to defend the brand.

So, lets all hold hands and say " its OK, these cars have issues, just like
any car".

Furthermore, as a newbie, I have found some very helpful info here, I don't
agree that I should research the world and be an expert before asking a
question. I want to and need to benefit from your research!

cheers - Tuan

 

[John A.]

There are no Subarus that do not have a 'center' differential.

There is no center differential in an automatic Forester.

I've looked over all the AWD descriptions on the Subaru website,
and there were places where there was more marketing hype
than clear accurate technical desciptions. The factory service manual
should be a much better source of info. From your previous post it
sounded like you didn't have the FSM for the subes that don't have the
center diff.

David,
There is indeed a center differential... as there must be in all AWD
vehicles.
Perhaps it's a matter of terminology? The differential is built directly
into the transmission, but it is indeed there...I may also be referred to as
a transfer clutch... but the effect is the same. It is in between the front
and rear axles (i.e. center) and accounts for differences in front and rear
wheel speeds.

Here's a link to check out (broad audience... not very technical):
http://www.subaru.com/allwheeldrive/ver2005/index.jsp
Here's the link for technical info:
http://techinfo.subaru.com/html/index.jsp
Regards,
John

 

[David]

David,
There is indeed a center differential... as there must be in all AWD
vehicles.
Perhaps it's a matter of terminology?

I realized after I posted, that you might consider the transfer clutch a
center differential. It certainly allows the front & rear wheels to turn
at different speeds. By differential, I was referring to a geared differential.

 

[Spinifex]

VERY good response td..... I can't agree with you more....

This is NOT a venue for discussing why someone should NOT purchase a
Subaru... readers here have ALREADY purchased their Subaru, on the
whole...... it is meant as a forum for people to ask relevant sensible
(sometimes even stupid) questions, of peers who can generally answer
through their own experiences...

If you want to bag Subaru, or Ford, or any other manufacturer... go post
your comments in
alt.autos.im_a_sad_bastard_whining_loser.all_manufacturers......... i'm
sure you'll get the flamer & troll replies you are craving

Spinifex

 

[Henry Paul]

UTAH

I have to agree there. If I can pull the hill in 5th, I pull it in 5th. If I
am trying to pass a slowpoke in the process of climbing a hill that has been
annoying me for the past 20 miles on a 2-lane road with no opportunity to
pass, then I am going to drop to 4th, wind up to 4300k, and pass the POS.

According to my engine specs my peak torque and hp are somewhere around
4600k rpm so I have no problems running harder in 4th when I need to.