will subaru ever get back the trust of the early 90's

[bj]

when they had the great 2.2 engine?...will they ever own up to the
failure of the 96-99 2.5l DOHC? let alone the later 2.5 SOHC with
their head gasket failures? Will they ever own up to the design flaw in
the engine which is not a gasket problem but a basic design problem
allowing hotspots from air bubbles in the coolant..

it would have been a cheap fix to drill and tap the coolant crossover
pipe to allow the air to escape....but subaru denial is the cheaper
fix...

if you do change your coolant...take care to remove the air, burp the
system and save your heads...and do a google search for "subaru head
gasket failures"

my 2 cents

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

HG (or any other failure you can name) are not unique to Subaru. Nor is
a Subaru immune from just about any type failure that could affect
another make.

Also, the HG failures are at the bottom of the cylinder. Not at the top
where you'd expect a bubble to be. Though it is tricky to burp Soob
engines, there are Toyota engines that require filling through a heater
hose to remove the air pockets.

Carl

 

[MN]

HG (or any other failure you can name) are not unique to Subaru. Nor is a
Subaru immune from just about any type failure that could affect another
make.

Also, the HG failures are at the bottom of the cylinder. Not at the top
where you'd expect a bubble to be. Though it is tricky to burp Soob
engines, there are Toyota engines that require filling through a heater
hose to remove the air pockets.

Carl

Because X may not be the only idiot in Texas, does that excuse his
stupidity?
This seems to be the logic of your argument, Carl.

With this issue there is reason for distrust of Subaru to develop, and
I think some degree of distrust is already out there. The problem seems
to be even more serious as the Subaru 2.5L engine is the main powerplant
for the make. I know I would be very hesitant to buy another Subie, today,
no matter what engine.

Will subaru ever get back the trust of the early 90's?

I doubt it, and if they do its going to be a lenghty process because the
competition is
fierce, and getting fiercer. The new product Tribeca will hepl them but
they need to shore
up their main product before branching out. They want get far with big
holes in their
defences, so to speak.

MN

 

[bj]

like most texans, you don't know squat...the SOHC has an exterior leak
from the bottom, the DOHC...and a cheap additive fix which lasts 'til
the 100,000 warranty ois over.. ...96-99 has an internal
leak....resulting in overheating, then total failure...however you want
to cut it, that engine, although a very good engine has a serious flaw
which subaru won't own up to....an it takes more then just filling the
top radiator hose....to get the air out takes numerous attempts or a
swirl tank which is what pilots use when using that engine in a
plane....a yank from mn

 

[bj]

here are 200 subaru owners with the same head gasket problem

http://scott.mcgerik.com/2004/02/18/subaru-outback-head-gasket-leak/

imagine how many thousands of people worldwide have to deal with this
problem....

 

[bj]

here are 200 subaru owners with the same head gasket problem

http://scott.mcgerik.com/2004/02/18/subaru-outback-head-gasket-leak/

imagine how many thousands of people worldwide have to deal with this
problem....

 

[Rick Courtright]

their head gasket failures? Will they ever own up to the design flaw in
the engine which is not a gasket problem but a basic design problem
allowing hotspots from air bubbles in the coolant..

my 2 cents

Hi,

I know I'm not going to change your mind, but I think your criticism is
worth about the 2 cents you ascribed to it. HG failures seem to be a
pretty common item today, and make seems to have little to do with it.
Toyota, Honda, Ford and GM products have all caused grief to people I've
known (I'm told by radiator guys recent Toyotas and Fords both come from
the factory with a "sealer" like Subie's recent "conditioner" to help
forestall HG problems, but it comes with its own side effects: failure
to remove it with a coolant change in the first year or so has been
known to cause radiator clogging in Toyotas, failure to replace it at
coolant changes has led to HG problems in Fords. Nobody's perfect.) A
friend who owns an automotive machine shop says most makes today
suffer--he claims it's because of emissions requirements: engineers have
to run things "too hot" to get a clean enough burn, which leads to
having to "hollow out" the heads to carry more coolant, but then the
lack of metal causes warpage and leaks. The only recent HG failure I've
had personally was on a Toyota 22-R engine, arguably one of their most
bulletproof 4 cyls. When it started overheating (at only 69k miles!), my
friend drew me a rough picture on a scrap of paper where to look for a
blown gasket. When I pulled the head, the site of the failure couldn't
have been closer to where he showed me if he'd have drawn a proper
blueprint! Currently, I have a V-6 Camry, and stories of blown HGs on
them don't lack, either, though (knocking on wood) mine's been ok. Yet
we don't hear much criticism of Toyota's reliability, do we?

Then we get to "burping" the engines... if you think a Subie's fun, you
should have tried to get the air out of that 22-R Toyota! It would take
AT LEAST a week of adding coolant to the overflow tank every day despite
using all the "tricks" to fill the system properly at each change. And
the V-6 Toyota? The coolant was always changed by the dealer before I
got the car. I changed it last time, and carefully measured what I took
out, since Toyota's book capacity specs have seldom matched my real life
experience. When I put that amount back in, it wasn't near full! I put
over a quart MORE in the engine than what I took out right then, and
then a half pint or more in the next few days. Tell me there weren't
some hot spots in THAT system? And Toyota was even thoughtful enough to
put a second radiator cap in a crossover area on the engine. I won't
even waste time recounting tales from friends and family that are
similar. In contrast, my Subie's pretty straightforward with minimal
"topping off" required in the first few days after a coolant change.

So criticize Subie if you wish, but I've got enough of a Missouri
heritage you're gonna have to "show me" why Subie's any worse off than
the others before I'll take much stock in the criticism!

Rick

 

[Clifford Heath]

...96-99 has an internal
leak....resulting in overheating, then total failure...however you want
to cut it, that engine, although a very good engine has a serious flaw
which subaru won't own up to....an it takes more then just filling the
top radiator hose....to get the air out takes numerous attempts or a
swirl tank which is what pilots use when using that engine in a
plane....a yank from mn

Could you describe how to properly burp this engine?
Ours is currently being rebuilt with the upgraded HG,
is it possible to fit a bleeder pipe to help with burping?
Where does it need to be fitted?

 

[bj]

well Rick...that link i left you has almost 200 unsatisfied subaru head
gasket customers ...all with the identical problem...that should say
something....

here also is a link from an aircraft mechanic ..

..scroll down to air in coolant and he describes the problem and fix

http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/engine.htm

cliff, i remember seeing a site where a guy took about three days to
fill his system.....

 

[bj]

rick, if you think my criticism is worth about two cents, then show me
a site for toyota ford or yugo for that matter, that has so many
dissatisfied customers screaming about one problem ..head gasket
failure...

you must work for subaru

 

[CompUser]

@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, (e-mail address removed)
says...

....an it takes more then just filling the
top radiator hose....to get the air out takes numerous attempts or a
swirl tank which is what pilots use when using that engine in a
plane....a yank from mn

Ahah!

Hold it right there---don't go anywhere!

"Swirl tank", "swirl pot"---what the heck
are they?!?! Details, please.

 

[bj]

this is the aircraft link...click on subaru engine and scroll down to
air in coolant

lets hope this one opens

http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html

 

[CompUser]

@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, (e-mail address removed)
says...

well Rick...that link i left you has almost 200 unsatisfied subaru head
gasket customers ...all with the identical problem...that should say
something....

here also is a link from an aircraft mechanic ..

.scroll down to air in coolant and he describes the problem and fix

http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/engine.htm

The link needs "html" to work.

According to this guy you cite, Subaru has made
changes in response to the problem:

"So trapped air causes head warp, which causes
air to enter the cooling system. It was pretty
amusing that at the same time I discovered this
entrained air sensitivity in the 2.5 engine, so
too did the auto dealers. Head warp caused by
customers changing their coolant is now the
number one warranty item with this engine. All
caused by an engine block that was not plumbed to
dynamically remove air from the high point.
Subaru has since changed their cooling system
design. "

 

[bj]

According to this guy you cite, Subaru has made
changes in response to the problem:

it would be nice for subaru to own up to it and tell the rest of
us......my forester cost 25 grand.....like i said... a recall for a
drill and tap and swirl tank would have been an hour fix.it has cost a
lot of these people $1500-2000 and its still not fixed...

 

[bj]

here's a little better description and application of the swirl pot and
also the head gasket problem..

http://www.ultimatesubaru.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-28600.html

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

I own a Sube and I am shopping for another. They have my trust - at
present. So, once, did Totota, and datsun(my daughter's presently has a
$4 part that needs 16-19 hours to replace - oil seal between timing
chain housing and block - she is the Exxon Valdez of Tarrant County).
And Honda? Actually, even though I had a Honda eat cyl. number 2 when
the rocker carrier rotated and oil starved the followers, I bought a
second one. It gave me good service. Ya see, this Texan understands
anecdotal stories and anomalies. Doesn't mean BJ shouldn't be upset. I
would be too. After all, even if something has a 1% chance of happening,
when it happens to YOU, you're experiencing it 100% of the time.

I feel your pain. I guess, I really just don't care. A line from a song
popular in TEXAS goes; 'It's your misfortune and none of my own'.

Carl

 

[bj]

i feel your pain i guess, i just don't care?....is that texas talk for
i don't have anything to add and i could care less about all the smucks
who have this problem but since i have nothing else to do i might
write sumptin!

you gave us bush...thanks for nuthin'

 

[Rick Courtright]

well Rick...that link i left you has almost 200 unsatisfied subaru head
gasket customers ...all with the identical problem...that should say
something....

It tells me someone collected some names... approx 1/10 of 1% of one
year's sales figures, and that's IF they all had the same year car! If a
manufacturer of any product has 99.9% of his production free of a
particular problem or defect, I can see how he might not put all his
efforts into fixing what's really a non-existent problem from HIS
standpoint. Now, as someone else said, if YOUR vehicle is one of the
defective ones, it's a whole different story. To YOU! But to the mfr
it's a numbers game and somebody's gonna lose. "Sorry it was you," they
say. And they move on... be glad you weren't burned up in a Pinto!

Thanks for trying with that link, but if one reads the fellow's blog,
his story's so full of holes I'd hardly consider him credible. $40 for a
radiator hose clamp? They (Subaru) put the cooling system conditioner in
the oil? Come on, now, you've gotta do better than that!

Rick

 

[MN]

I feel your pain. I guess, I really just don't care. A line from a song
popular in TEXAS goes; 'It's your misfortune and none of my own'.

Yup, we've all heard a lot of that recently. I guess we should
nominate you Carl for President of alt.autos.subaru ))


Now back to the issue, I think there is a lot of fluctuaction
and "regression to the mean" in quality of car manufacture.
By this I mean brands that have built a reputation can afford
some slack later on, and manufacturers who got sloppy
if they want to stay in business they must improve their products.

So perhaps the best bet is to buy a brand that has had
some problems in recent past and hopefully is in the
improvement cycle, and avoid those basking in recent glory
cause they may be in the desceding phase of the cycle.

Recently this would be avoid Subaru, buy say Hyundai.
Tomorrow, or even today it may be the opposite. Who knows
how long a described cycle lasts.

MN

 

[Edward Hayes]

I have replaced the coolant in my 92,000 miles 2000 Forester 4X times
without any problems. I park the car with the engine end up or at
least level and unscrew the radiator drain cock. I then refill
engine/radiator with distilled water and with the radiator cap off I
run the engine till the stat opens adding water to keep it full. I run
the engine at 2000 rpm for about 5 minutes. I redrain the radiator via
the petcock. I add a 50/50 mix of coolant until full and again run the
engine till hot with the cap off, add coolant as needed. I run the
engine for another 5 minutes at 2000 rpm and shut down. When the
engine is cool I top up the radiator and coolant overflow tank. I
clean the cap and where the cap seals on the radiator and I'm done.
Understanding why you are doing the sequence for a proper coolant
change and the time required to do a proper job IS important. Ed