Why not Automatic?

[JaySee]

Funny... I've push started my old 93 Honda Civic Si with a DOHC VTEC
B16A JDM Fuel Injected Engine when I accidently left my lights on.
Stupid Honda didn't think of making annoying sounds when you park the
car with the lights on.

ANYWAYS... You ca push start ANY manual transmission car. Fuel
Injection has nothing to do with anything. Push starting a car does
the same thing the electric starter does: turn the engine crank to get
it started.

 

[Edward Hayes]

The "static" or default Forester AT ratio in the US id 60/40 according to
Subaru.

 

[Dominic Richens]

ANYWAYS... You ca push start ANY manual transmission car. Fuel
Injection has nothing to do with anything. Push starting a car does
the same thing the electric starter does: turn the engine crank to get
it started.

Well, I think it depends on the car. When you push the engine over it turns
the alternator which powers the fuel injectors. However if the injectors
are triggered by the ECU, and the ECU takes more than a few seconds to
"boot", this maybe a problem.

 

[Edward Hayes]

Fact: I counted my stops over several days and concluded I would push the
clutch pedal and shift lever ~520 times per day. I love manuals but, my day
to day traffic pattern must be taken into account. I would add the following
1. The gas mileage is the same (city or highway) for MT or AT and I have
proved it with a 1998 MT F vs. and my present 2000 AT. Forester
2. The 800 dollars saved with the MT will be used for clutch repairs.
3. I take care of my vehicles and have never needed a push start since I was
a teenager so this is not considered
4. An AT will pull a greater load up a steep boat ramp where the MT unit
will seriously abuse the clutch at best
5. My Forester AT has a 60/40 front to rear power split default (quoted
from Subaru tech dept) and is ALWAYS activated where as the MT system must
detect first wheel speed difference, then heat up the silicone oil in the
coupling and then transfer the power. Subaru calls the AT the thinking mans
trans for a reason.
6 I love manuals for the excitement but realize for a practical everyday
vehicle (90% of my driving) that the AT is the way to go). I wish I had a
second Forester XT with a manual for the 10 % of my fun driving. Eddie.

 

[Don D.]

Not likely a reliability issue w/ the auto, just a personal preference. If
you don't want to shift all the time, buy an auto, if you want "control" of
your car buy manual.

I used to drive Manual and liked it very much, but it is a pain in heavy
traffic and as I get older, an automatic is much more to my liking.

What I hate are those who have manual and don't know how to use it. Daily,
I get behind someone at a light who is driving a manual and when they start
out and shift to second, they lose at least 5 miles an hour. Every shift it
is the same. I start out behind them and when they shift, I have to brake.
Then I accelerate until they shift again and I brake again. I do this
through 4-5 gears at each light until I can pass them. There is no need to
lose speed between shifts, but it seems most people do it. The Miata
drivers seem to be the worst. So many people buy them because they are
"cute", but don't know how to drive.

Get an automatic!

Don D.

 

[Bruce Hoult]

2) With a manual you can push-start the car if you leave the lights on. No
jumper cables needed.

Why are we talking about this in a Subaru group? Subarus turn the
lights off when you turn the ignition off.

Well, all the ones I've driven here in NZ do (Jap and NZ spec), anyway.

-- Bruce

 

[FNO]

Why are we talking about this in a Subaru group? Subarus turn the
lights off when you turn the ignition off.

Well, all the ones I've driven here in NZ do (Jap and NZ spec), anyway.

-- Bruce

They do ion N. America too.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

C'mon.
Do they turn the wiper, seat, mirror heaters off?
interior lights?
there are still a few ways a person's battery could be too low to start
the vehicle.

 

[Decimal Cat]

Wipers and rear window heaters, yes. . dunno about the seat and mirror
heaters, my Loyale doesn't have 'em, neither does my mom's legacy. In any
Subaru I've ever driven about the only way you can drain the battery down is
to leave the interior dome light on, and I accidentally did this in my
Loyale one cold night - went out, started the car right up the next morning.
I'm not sure about the dome light's power consumption, but I doubt it's much
more than an amp.

A short or a bad battery can cause the need for an alternative starting
method, so this is a concern, though. Good idea is to carry a battery
booster in the back or a pair of jumper cables in case they're needed.

--Decimal Cat

C'mon.
Do they turn the wiper, seat, mirror heaters off?
interior lights?
there are still a few ways a person's battery could be too low to start
the vehicle.

*snipped*

 

[D H]

Wipers and rear window heaters, yes. . dunno about the seat and mirror
heaters, my Loyale doesn't have 'em, neither does my mom's legacy. In any
Subaru I've ever driven about the only way you can drain the battery down is
to leave the interior dome light on, and I accidentally did this in my
Loyale one cold night - went out, started the car right up the next morning.
I'm not sure about the dome light's power consumption, but I doubt it's much
more than an amp.

Seat and mirror heaters are also turned off when the key is turned to
off position. I'm with the poster who said starting a car with "dead"
battery is a non-factor. I have long ago stopped carrying jumper cables
along because the only thing they ever did was jump someone ELSE's dead
battery car. If I have to be stuck somewhere till help is obtained, so be
it. I'm sure carrying jumper cables is a necessary item for some cars, but
it is MUCH less common than it used to be (at least here in my neck of the
woods in USA.) I also have had dome lights left on overnight and there was
not the least bit of hesitation in the battery the next morning at startup
time. (Thank goodness.)

 

[D H]

As others have alluded to, driveability, convenience, mileage,
durability/maintenance, and other factors also play a role. Don't
believe advertised (EPA) mileage numbers for the AT - they are almost
always much lower in real life. Conversely, MT drivers have reported
long-term average mileage as high as 30-32 mpg on sustained highway
driving. So, depending on where and how you drive, the mpg figure
difference can easily be 4-5mpg or more.

I beg to differ. The actual mileage afforded by the Forester AT is
almost dead-on the money with EPA estimates (USA). I live in the mountains
and drive none too slowly and still get equal to or above estimates for city
and right in line with estimates for highway. Any claim of "almost always
lower in real life" must be based on foolish folks who don't know how to
conserve at all. I challenge you to drive any manual and beat my automatic
by anything above 2mpg. I doubt you will beat it by ONE mpg on the same
terrain at same speed.
To original poster, I would say buy whatever tranny you find best fits
your lifestyle and needs. Don't be afraid of the automatic at all. It
performs marvelously well, IMO, and the odds are it is going to be the less
expensive tranny in the long run.

 

[TransFixed]

I beg to differ.

Well, well, Dale, you are in an unusually combative mode, tonight! ;-)

The actual mileage afforded by the Forester AT is
almost dead-on the money with EPA estimates (USA).

If you are lucky with the car you got, and if you know how to drive an
AT such that it conserves gas - which most people don't. Then I agree,
yes.

For example, while I love my wife dearly, she routinely gets a full
4-5mpg less on the same trips with our Passat 4Motion wagon (AT by
default) than I do. Why? Perhaps because she does not consider the
inertia of the car, uses the brakes too much (instead of planning
ahead), or stomps on the gas at high rpms.

ATs are very, very difficult to drive efficiently. All internal
combustion engines work best at wide open throttle (WOT) and low rpm.
Almost an oxymoron, as far as ATs are concerned - given their torque
converter and tendency to automatically upshift if you hit the metal.
Most people are not the WOT smooth operators it takes to drive an AT
efficiently.

I live in the mountains
and drive none too slowly and still get equal to or above estimates for city
and right in line with estimates for highway. Any claim of "almost always
lower in real life" must be based on foolish folks who don't know how to
conserve at all.

As I mentioned above, that's rather difficult in an AT, and my personal
statistics tell me, those fools are in the majority; hence, "almost
always". (Fools? Majority? Looking at the state of this country, I am
not surprised!).

I challenge you to drive any manual and beat my automatic
by anything above 2mpg. I doubt you will beat it by ONE mpg on the same
terrain at same speed.

Hey, you don't know how well I drive and shift WOT at 1500 rpm - if you
provide the car and I don't need to worry about long-term ramifications
of destroying the engine that way (which will happily run 200,000 miles
at 5000rpm, but not at <2000rpm).

To original poster, I would say buy whatever tranny you find best fits
your lifestyle and needs. Don't be afraid of the automatic at all. It
performs marvelously well,

I agree, in particular, if you don't require the last bit of power
because of heavy loads in the mountains or minimal on-ramps.

IMO, and the odds are it is going to be the less
expensive tranny in the long run.

I think Subaru recently has been very good about resolving MT
transmission and clutch problems under warranty. First time MT drivers
and people who don't know about factory advisories perhaps excluded.

Can I come, too? Always wanted to. Your signature line's so inviting.
You're talking about Utah, aren't you? That's a bit of a drive, for me.

- D.

 

[dgcam55]

I beg to differ. The actual mileage afforded by the Forester AT is
almost dead-on the money with EPA estimates (USA). I live in the mountains
and drive none too slowly and still get equal to or above estimates for city
and right in line with estimates for highway. Any claim of "almost always
lower in real life" must be based on foolish folks who don't know how to
conserve at all. I challenge you to drive any manual and beat my automatic
by anything above 2mpg. I doubt you will beat it by ONE mpg on the same
terrain at same speed.
To original poster, I would say buy whatever tranny you find best fits
your lifestyle and needs. Don't be afraid of the automatic at all. It
performs marvelously well, IMO, and the odds are it is going to be the less
expensive tranny in the long run.

I have an 03 XS manual, I have about 4000 miles on it, and I too, live
in the mountains. I am averaging 29-30 miles per gallon - that is
mixed backroad & highway driving. EPA sticker said 21-27 mpg for it.
So I am experiencing above what the EPA rating sticker said, and about
10 - 15% better than the automatic EPA rating (20-26 I believe for the
2003).

I say get what you are comfortable with, because if you aren't
comfortable driving it, it would be a total waste of 20+ thousand
dollars!
I drove both the AT and stick shift. The auto wasn't bad - but I
really preferred the stick. I also prefer the true 50/50 AWD system
in the manual.

Best of luck...
Dominic

 

[Yousuf Khan]

Seat and mirror heaters are also turned off when the key is turned to
off position. I'm with the poster who said starting a car with "dead"
battery is a non-factor. I have long ago stopped carrying jumper cables
along because the only thing they ever did was jump someone ELSE's dead
battery car. If I have to be stuck somewhere till help is obtained, so be
it. I'm sure carrying jumper cables is a necessary item for some cars, but
it is MUCH less common than it used to be (at least here in my neck of the
woods in USA.) I also have had dome lights left on overnight and there was
not the least bit of hesitation in the battery the next morning at startup
time. (Thank goodness.)

I had a battery that stopped holding its charge in my OBW. Of course that's
a special case, they don't regularly die like that.

Yousuf Khan

 

[D H]

(snipped)

Well, well, Dale, you are in an unusually combative mode, tonight! ;-)

Yes, sometimes I get real tough that way.

If you are lucky with the car you got, and if you know how to drive an
AT such that it conserves gas - which most people don't. Then I agree,
yes.

For example, while I love my wife dearly, she routinely gets a full
4-5mpg less on the same trips with our Passat 4Motion wagon (AT by
default) than I do. Why? Perhaps because she does not consider the
inertia of the car, uses the brakes too much (instead of planning
ahead), or stomps on the gas at high rpms.

ATs are very, very difficult to drive efficiently. All internal
combustion engines work best at wide open throttle (WOT) and low rpm.
Almost an oxymoron, as far as ATs are concerned - given their torque
converter and tendency to automatically upshift if you hit the metal.
Most people are not the WOT smooth operators it takes to drive an AT
efficiently.

I can agree with your premise of differences between drivers, but it
seems to me that this would also cause similar drops in their mileage
results with manual trannys, so I don't think it makes a lot of difference.
Some folks get great results, others don't, regardless of which tranny they
are driving. In my opinion, most automatics of today are FAR superior to
those of even 10 years ago, and provide almost identical mileage results to
those of manuals. And personally, I think the good ones (which I believe
Subarus are) give plenty of peppy performance. I can only say I can easily
accelerate and get through the holes in traffic about anytime I choose
(which is pretty frequent), and I seldom see any others who do better,
regardless of what they're driving. I wouldn't even consider a manual tranny
because it just offers little that I need (even if it does offer potentially
more fun.)

As I mentioned above, that's rather difficult in an AT, and my personal
statistics tell me, those fools are in the majority; hence, "almost
always". (Fools? Majority? Looking at the state of this country, I am
not surprised!).


Hey, you don't know how well I drive and shift WOT at 1500 rpm - if you
provide the car and I don't need to worry about long-term ramifications
of destroying the engine that way (which will happily run 200,000 miles
at 5000rpm, but not at <2000rpm).

Nyet!! Natch!! None of those qualifying conditions that don't stand up
to the real world. You drive yours, I'll drive mine. You repair yours, I'll
repair mine. (My "combative side" comes to the fore!!)

I agree, in particular, if you don't require the last bit of power
because of heavy loads in the mountains or minimal on-ramps.

Never met an onramp I couldn't deal with just fine, thank you. Simply
need to know the road properly to know when to time things; the Forester AT
can haul up to speed in a real hurry in most situations, particularly on
ramps, IMO.

I think Subaru recently has been very good about resolving MT
transmission and clutch problems under warranty. First time MT drivers
and people who don't know about factory advisories perhaps excluded.

My THEORY is that most folks do need to replace clutches before most
automatics need servicing.

Can I come, too? Always wanted to. Your signature line's so inviting.
You're talking about Utah, aren't you? That's a bit of a drive, for me.

Nope. Good old western VA, near Douthat State Park, home of "mountain
bike disneyland." (You have to understand, my sig refers to BIKE riding.)
By the way, if you're looking for a place to ride trails, this place is
cream of the crop. Over 40 miles of fantastic park trails open to biking,
plus many more miles of national forest trails connected to the park trails.
Some of this stuff is simply epic mountain biking. If you prefer road rides,
we certainly have some gorgeous area for that too, with huge climbs easy to
find, and smaller ones plentiful everywhere. The only thing hard to find is
a flat road, though the road that runs through the middle of Douthat is
reasonably so, especially for this area. I roadbike and mountainbike, so if
you come to this area, I'd be glad to show you around on two wheels!

 

[dgcam55]

Snip: Also some people do not calculate mileage correctly or use a
one tank or gas gage guess. etc

Some people may do that....But just FYI....I did not make any such
"educated guesses".
I filled up the tank and divided the # of miles I drove from the last
time I filled up (I always fill up) by the total # of gallons pumped.
This gives you the total miles per gallon you have been getting since
the
last time you filled up.
When I do the math it has always fallen between 28 & 30.

Enjoy...and may the mileage gods be with you.
Dominic

 

[Ron]

Hmmmm.... My '02 Legacy L is Automatic. The EPA says the milage is 22/27,
and I'm getting 24/29. Granted, my "city" travel is a lot more highway-like
than the EPA definition of "city", and I also might be more the exception
than the rule for the ATs. I don't baby the car, but I don't drive it hard,
either. So far, my gas milage has been better than posted.

-Ron

 

[Edward Hayes]

I like my 2000 Forester AT very much. I am a brisk but not a hard driver. I
get 20-22 in Suburban driveling and 26-28 at 70-75 mph on expressway trips.
( same as my old 1998 Forester with MT) Unless you like "fun driving" which
I do but, only 5 % or so of my day to day then go for the AT. O-Yes the AT
is the more advanced transmission as it is always activated unlike the MT
center differential. My 2000 Forester has a 60/40 front to rear ratio (
Subaru numbers & same as the Australia Forester AT (Subaru quoted counter
part). I would love a second Subaru, maybe a XT with a manual for the 5% of
my "fun" driving. Eddie

 

[L D Jones]

C'mon.
Do they turn the wiper, seat, mirror heaters off?
interior lights?
there are still a few ways a person's battery could be too low to start
the vehicle.

Leaving the 'parking lights' on will do it. Those aren't shut off when
the engine is turned off

 

[Victor Roberts]

I don't know what model this thread was started to discuss (if any
particular one) but in the OBW (and all late model Subarus?) it is
impossible to leave the lights on and drain the battery. The lights shut
off when the engine is turned off. Whe I bought mine I wondered why
there was no "your lights are on buzzer" until I read this in the
owner's manual

As has been pointed out, there is a rocker switch on the top of the
steering column that will turn on the parking lights even if the
ignition is off, and it is possible to have the interior dome light on
with the engine off, and at least on my '97 OBW, if I don't close the
rear hatch firmly, the front and rear dome lights will remain on.

It is unlikely that any of these will drain you battery overnight, but
a multi-day stay at an airport parking lot may be a very different
story - especially in the winter. And, airport parking lots are where
the hatch is likely to be not closed properly after I remove my
luggage and hurry to wait in line for security.