Saaburu - Subaru, Saab and GM

[Richard Kilpatrick]

She still talks wistfully of how much
she loved her 1986 SAAB 900, but she knows that AWD is essential, so we
ended up settling on an Audi A4.

Did she consider a Volvo V70 XC? Do they market that in the US? It's
like a Swedish Subaru Outback, if they don't - very, very, very nice
indeed, but more expensive than our American-built favourite

(My dad, with my encouragement, has an Outback, after he used my Legacy
2.2GX, bought it off me, then replaced it with a Legacy 4Cam Turbo
(which I got back for a little while when he got the Outback. That was a
lovely car)).

Actually, point out that the Outback is made in America. Maybe that'll
help.

Richard

 

[The_Incubator]

Yeah, it's very much a WRX.

I saw it at the LA auto show, and my buddy and I knew going in that it
was "based" on the WRX, which I took to mean chassis and drivetrain, but
we were surprised to see just how much WRX was visible. They had it
roped off on a pedastal, but it had the WRX dash with the same A/C
vents, with basically the same trim except faceplates for the stereo/AC
controls were different. Looked like the same instrument cluster and
steering column controls, and it even had the same pedals as the WRX. I
don't remember if they kept the Momo wheel, but I probably would have
remembered if it did. All the quoted HP and other engine specs were
identical to WRX. There was nothing about the car that suggested the
differences were more than a few sheet metal pieces, stereo faceplates
and the leather seats, and leather door panel trim.

I thought it sounded like a interesting car, and I still do, just not
very interesting. I like the body, especially the wagon, and I liked the
idea of a WRX with a bit more upscale interior. But the car I saw did
not look upscale enough to justify the price premium they will want. For
me, it's not worth any premium over the WRX, but still a cool little car.

When I saw it they didn't have brochures published yet, so maybe that
car was not 100% production, but it will still be very Subaru.

Nick

 

[Richard Kilpatrick]

The Ford Escape,
Land Rover Freelander, and Mazda Tribute

Are they the same car?

I always thought the Freelander wasn't really good enough to be a Ford


Richard

 

[y_p_w]

Are they the same car?

Not exactly. The reviews I've read seem to indicate that the Tribute's
suspension is tuned for better handling than the other versions.

I always thought the Freelander wasn't really good enough to be a Ford

Well - doing a bit more research finds that the current Volvo Cross-
Country is built on the same platform. Of course Ford owns Volvo
Cars (but not trucks), Land Rover, and a controlling interest in
Mazda. There has been some "cross-pollination" between Ford and
Mazda, such as the MX6/Probe.

 

[John Opezdol]

I don't think official prices are out yet but if the prices that you
list are true, I think saab is making a big mistake pricing it too
high. The overlap with the 9-3 sports sedan ($26-32k) will be
particularly problematic. Moreover, I think prospective buyers will

Why would it be problematic? It will just kill most of the 9-3 sales. Big
dial.
9-3 is a piece of garbage anyway. Imagine the DBwhatever/Thunderbird on ice
commerical in the latest Bond flick replaced by a commerical for two crappy
FWD european
cars. I would imagine the words coming out of the mouth of the professional
drivers trying to stop the spins and do the other fun stuff they did with
the cars in the movie

need to have a hard look at whether the 9-2 is worth some $4-5k more
than the WRX (which will be no secret). From what I've read, the dash

A lot of car buyers don't care for anything, but the badge on the grille.
I'm reminded of that
simple fact every day by grandmas in beemers tiptoing around the corners.
I'd be surprised if the vast majority of the Saab customers would know where
9-2 came
from and would care much if they did. 9-2 would be a statusmobile and a
Subaru just can't be
because it does not have any "prestige" status associated with the marque.
It's all about
brainwashing (this particular flavor is called "branding" in the mba-speak,
I think)

 

[John Opezdol]

she loved her 1986 SAAB 900, but she knows that AWD is essential, so we

Did she consider a Volvo V70 XC? Do they market that in the US? It's
like a Swedish Subaru Outback, if they don't - very, very, very nice
indeed, but more expensive than our American-built favourite

One could argue that AWD system in A4 is by far better than that in a Volvo.
It's probably even better than that in a Subaru with an automatic and
probably at least as good as awd in
a 5sp Subarus. If not better.

 

[Richard Kilpatrick]

Well - doing a bit more research finds that the current Volvo Cross-
Country is built on the same platform.

Now that sounds totally wrong. The XC70 or the XC90? IIRC the XC70 is
based on a cut down S80 platform, and the XC90 on a larger version.

Richard

 

[CW]

They WILL be the same car for 2005. As it stands, the 2004 Freelander
is currently mfg in England. Of course, each badge is free to make
minor tweaks to suit their customers.

CW

 

[Sam Hain]

Don't blame GM. Saab have done this before. The 9000 is a rebadged and
mildly reworked (in later models) Lancia Thema/Fiat Croma. There was a
Europe-only model, the 600, which was a Lancia Delta of all things. And
lets not forget that the present and previous 9-3, and the 9-5, are
based on Vauxhall's dynamically challenged Vectra platform (and in the
case of the present 9-3, look suspiciously like a mid 1990s European
Vectra/Cavalier)...

Richard

The 9000 was a joint venture with Fiat, and was distinctly a Saab
through and through. The 9-3 and 9-5 were all GM (who also owns
Vauxhall). My wife had a 9-5 SE and it was a pretty good car. I've
owned 3 80s 900s, 2 90s 900s and a NG 900s and 9000 as well as the
9-5. the 9000 was as much a saab as any. the new generation 900s and
9-3, well, lets say for me it was the beginning of the end for my
relationship with Saab as a loyal owner.

 

[JaySee]

This car will sell. People WILL pay the premium for a nicer brand
name.

Is an I30/I35 any better than a Maxima? NOPE
Is an ES300 any better than a Camry? NOPE
Do they sell? YEP!

 

[y_p_w]

Now that sounds totally wrong. The XC70 or the XC90? IIRC the XC70 is
based on a cut down S80 platform, and the XC90 on a larger version.

I thought it was the XC90, but it may just be the next generation
XC40 that's going to share the platform.

The following has pictures of the Escape, Tribute, Freelander, and
XC90. The XC90 is the only one facing to its left.

<http://www.ford.com/en/vehicles/vehicleShowroom/suvs/default.htm>

You're probably right.

 

[Richard Kilpatrick]

I thought it was the XC90, but it may just be the next generation
XC40 that's going to share the platform.

I think that you're way ahead of yourself on both counts, after doing
some research. The next gen Freelander is apparently tipped to use the
Escape/Maverick (both the same Ford, Maverick is the tag in the UK)
chassis, but the current one is a Land Rover design (BMW ownership era,
IIRC). It's been nothing but trouble for Ford, so I can't blame them.

The XC40 - and 'current' S/V40 models, rather than the Carisma based
model recently on sale (and still available from stock) is based on the
next gen Focus; or to be more precise, the next gen Focus and present
C-Max are based on a Volvo/Ford designed platform; this may have
elements of the Escape/Tribute/Maverick platform or the next gen models
of those may also be based on the C-Max platform. Platform is a very
loose term, after all.

You're probably right.

I reckon so with the XC90, since it's huge and a BMW X5/Toureg/M-class
competitor (and IMO considerably better value than any of those in the
UK).

Richard

 

[y_p_w]

I think that you're way ahead of yourself on both counts, after doing
some research. The next gen Freelander is apparently tipped to use the
Escape/Maverick (both the same Ford, Maverick is the tag in the UK)
chassis, but the current one is a Land Rover design (BMW ownership era,
IIRC). It's been nothing but trouble for Ford, so I can't blame them.

The XC40 - and 'current' S/V40 models, rather than the Carisma based
model recently on sale (and still available from stock) is based on the
next gen Focus; or to be more precise, the next gen Focus and present
C-Max are based on a Volvo/Ford designed platform; this may have
elements of the Escape/Tribute/Maverick platform or the next gen models
of those may also be based on the C-Max platform. Platform is a very
loose term, after all.

These things seem to change all the time. However - I believe that
my source was an article from a Land Rover magazine, and it might
have been before it was in the design stage. I thought I'd read that
the current Freelander was also built on the Escape platform, although
it may have just been some articles about Ford's future plans.

 

[Kevin Brewer]

I've heard from a pretty reliable source that the 9.2X will start at $22k
and top out right around $30k. According to the Subaru web site the WRX is
also right aroud $30k. The Saab will have nicer interior, a better
suspension and of course have the Saab name on it and Saab dealers to back
it up. It is much smaller than the 9.3 and I don't forsee too many people
trading their 9.3's on it. It really is targeting a whole different
audience. I can see Saab owners buying the 9.2 for a second car or as a car
for their teenage drivers. It will also bring in new owners to Saab, who
have always wanted one but couldn't afford one. I for one think it will be a
success.

As far as saying the 9.3 is a piece of garbage, the 9.3 Sport Sedan is one
of the best Saab's they have ever made. What makes you say it's a piece of
garbage, I'd be curious to know. Is this from experience or do you suffer
from euro car envy. (The fact that you can't afford one)

 

[Richard Kilpatrick]

I've heard from a pretty reliable source that the 9.2X will start at $22k
and top out right around $30k. According to the Subaru web site the WRX is
also right aroud $30k. The Saab will have nicer interior, a better
suspension and of course have the Saab name on it and Saab dealers to back
it up.

Since Subaru make world-beating rally cars /now/ when Saab haven't made
one for, oh, about 20-30 years, I think I know whose suspension is going
to be 'better' - and it ain't the company that bases cars on old Opels.

As for the interior, everything I've seen states that the 9-2's dash is
just the same as an Impreza dash; plasticky, bland, well made but
utterly, utterly un-Saab like, rather like the current 9-3 in fact.

As far as saying the 9.3 is a piece of garbage, the 9.3 Sport Sedan is one
of the best Saab's they have ever made. What makes you say it's a piece of
garbage, I'd be curious to know. Is this from experience or do you suffer
from euro car envy. (The fact that you can't afford one)

I know this isn't in response to me (I wouldn't, though, I'm lucky in
that I have a threaded newsreader. Learn to quote), however... the 9-3
is /not/ one of the best Saabs 'tney' have ever made. It's a bland,
derivative car based on a lifeless platform, and is an insult to the
name Saab - the last good Saab was the C900 (classic 900, with proper
wrap-around windscreen) Turbo. The 9000 is a Lancia Thema with a nicer
dashboard, the 900/old 9-3 is a Vauxhall Vectra with a makeover and a
nicer dashboard, and the 9-5 is a 9-3 on a stretched chassis. It's not
bad, but it's not a good Saab.

As for Euro car envy, don't kid yourself. The world is bigger than the
US, and I'm guessing that your response was aimed at someone from
Australia, where they get the best mix of Euro styling and ideas and US
'technology' - and a lot of excellent machinery from Japan since they
drive on the left and are very close. As for me, I don't suffer from
Euro car envy because a hell of a lot of Euro cars are cheaper here than
in the US. I can't afford a 9-3, but you know - if I could, I'd have
almost anything else, perhaps a Mercedes, or a BMW, or Audi, or maybe a
Volvo, or a Subaru Outback, or a Chrysler 300M (I like the 300C a great
deal, and the M has the correct driven wheels and a V8), or a VW Passat
W12, or... well, you get the idea. The 9-3 is /not/ a good car, there
are considerably better, more attractive, more competent, more
innovative cars on the market. This is what happens when GM gets hold of
a company.

I like real GMs; tough old Cadillacs and Buicks with separate chassis,
suspension that will take a dirt road, and interiors that may be ugly
and brittle, but at least the seats are comfy and most of it works until
the car dies. When GM tries to do 'sophisticated', it ends up with
'mess'.[1]

Richard
[1] The exception to this rule is Cadillac, with the CTS-V and the XLR
(IIRC), both deeply attractive, technologically advanced cars that
actually do things well - though Cadillac has always been innovative.
Mercedes want to harp on about the S-class 12-cylinder engine which
shuts off cylinders, or 'closure assist' features on the trunk and
doors? A 1981 Eldorado has those things.

 

[Arne Herrmann]

One could argue that AWD system in A4 is by far better than that in a Volvo.
It's probably even better than that in a Subaru with an automatic and
probably at least as good as awd in
a 5sp Subarus. If not better.

Here a little comparison video(quicktime) from a swedish website.
http://bilnytt.spray.se/nybil/Volvo XC mot Subaru/volvo_filmen.mov

It really shows, how good the Volvos AWD is...

greetings
Arne

 

[John Opezdol]

As far as saying the 9.3 is a piece of garbage, the 9.3 Sport Sedan is one
of the best Saab's they have ever made. What makes you say it's a piece of
garbage, I'd be curious to know. Is this from experience or do you suffer
from euro car envy. (The fact that you can't afford one)

To me any FWD car >$15-20k is trash. Below that it's economy I think BMW
3 series
are pretty decent, as are A4 quattros. I don't think I suffer (much from
Euro car envy
(with the possible exception of A4, but, much to my relief, they got uglier
this year).
Of course if you're like my ex and are only concerned about the shape of the
sheet metal
then BMW maybe is a car for you. But to me WRX and STi are better value for
the money.
Nevermind the looks of the STi :-(

 

[John Opezdol]

Here a little comparison video(quicktime) from a swedish website.
http://bilnytt.spray.se/nybil/Volvo XC mot Subaru/volvo_filmen.mov

It really shows, how good the Volvos AWD is...

This is priceless. Thank you. My understanding is that the same system is
used
in Audi A3, TT and VW Golf R32. The shopping list is getting smaller and
smaller

 

[y_p_w]

I've heard from a pretty reliable source that the 9.2X will start at $22k
and top out right around $30k. According to the Subaru web site the WRX is
also right aroud $30k. The Saab will have nicer interior, a better
suspension and of course have the Saab name on it and Saab dealers to back
it up. It is much smaller than the 9.3 and I don't forsee too many people
trading their 9.3's on it. It really is targeting a whole different
audience. I can see Saab owners buying the 9.2 for a second car or as a car
for their teenage drivers. It will also bring in new owners to Saab, who
have always wanted one but couldn't afford one. I for one think it will be a
success.

Actually - the WRX STi (a totally different beast altogether) runs
about $30K. I think a WRX wagon would likely top out around $26-27K
with factory options.

 

[y_p_w]

I like real GMs; tough old Cadillacs and Buicks with separate chassis,
suspension that will take a dirt road, and interiors that may be ugly
and brittle, but at least the seats are comfy and most of it works until
the car dies. When GM tries to do 'sophisticated', it ends up with
'mess'.[1]

The one thing GM does really well is pickup trucks. Big engine,
big transmission, big suspension. I don't know if anyone really
makes better pickup trucks than GMC or Chevys.

Richard
[1] The exception to this rule is Cadillac, with the CTS-V and the XLR
(IIRC), both deeply attractive, technologically advanced cars that
actually do things well - though Cadillac has always been innovative.
Mercedes want to harp on about the S-class 12-cylinder engine which
shuts off cylinders, or 'closure assist' features on the trunk and
doors? A 1981 Eldorado has those things.

I remember looking up a GM transmission, and finding out the 5-sp
automatic used in the CTS is made in Strasbourg, France. It's also
used in various BMWs (3-series/X3/X5/Z4), the Opel Omega (not
familiar with it), and Range Rovers. Of course I'd probably get
a CTS with the stick, if I didn't think it looked absolutely
hideous.