Is It Necessary To Use Premium?

(e-mail address removed) wrote in
Thank you to all who posted replys. Please keep them coming. For the
record, for now Dec., Jan. and Feb I'll stick to the recommend prem.
gas then when I start going through 3 or 4 tanks a week I'll make a
study of the difference and report my findings. Thanks again for your
advice. Look for my next, the 60,0000 mile service question.

Here is my data point of one - in my 1996 Acura Integra GS-R, I routinely
get 29-31 mpg. Just as an experiment, I put in one tank of regular and got
20 mpg, much reduced performance and more engine noise. Then I tried one
tank of mid-grade and got 24 mpg, still reduced performance and more noise.
So premium ends up being a bargain for me.

Now if only the dealer would call me up and tell me my Subaru is finally in
so I could go put premium in it!

Dee
 
Uncle said:
Can we agree that knocking is caused by too early an ignition?

So advancing the timing would make the knock even worse.

Retarding the timing would do nothing, since the mixture would already
have ignited from the compression.

So I don't see how any adjustment to timing would eliminate knocking
due to low octane. (If it would, think of the money we could save.)

Uncle Ben

hmmm - maybe I'm confused. I think some of the problem is also the
'flame front' or the shape of the combustion. That's why carbon buildup
is a 2-fold problem, it not only raises compression, it can create
hot-spots in areas other than the sparkplug.


Carl
 
Thank you to all who posted replys. Please keep them coming. For the
record, for now Dec., Jan. and Feb I'll stick to the recommend prem.
gas then when I start going through 3 or 4 tanks a week I'll make a
study of the difference and report my findings. Thanks again for your
advice. Look for my next, the 60,0000 mile service question.

If you want to experiment - try midgrade during cooler months and switch
to premium in the summer. If you switch back from a lower grade,
ideally, you should clear the ECU so it will 'learn' to put the timing
back in the proper position for the premium.

Carl
 
80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>, (e-mail address removed)
says...
Can we agree that knocking is caused by too early an ignition?

If you like...but then we'll have to ask you
"What's the difference between knocking and
preignition?"

So advancing the timing would make the knock even worse.

Retarding the timing would do nothing, since the mixture would already
have ignited from the compression.

Wow...ignited from *compression*? Are we talking
diesel engines now?
So I don't see how any adjustment to timing would eliminate knocking
due to low octane. (If it would, think of the money we could save.)

Uncle Ben

But you also don't "see" any need for replacing
fuses/fusible links when they blow, and advise
people to bridge across them with wire, and not
even try to determine the cause of the over-
current that blew the fuse. Stick to rice, Ben.
 
CompUser said:
80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>, (e-mail address removed)
says...
...

Wow...ignited from *compression*? Are we talking
diesel engines now?
Exactly. The problem is that diesel action in a car not designed for it
is trouble. That's why we are concerned with octane.
But you also don't "see" any need for replacing
fuses/fusible links when they blow, and advise
people to bridge across them with wire, and not
even try to determine the cause of the over-
current that blew the fuse. Stick to rice, Ben.

That fusible link was already in series with another fuse.
 
CompUser said:
80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>, (e-mail address removed)
says...


If you like...but then we'll have to ask you
"What's the difference between knocking and
preignition?"
Knocking is unintentional too-early ignition due to compression.
Pre-ignition, according to some, is too-early ignition due to mis-set
ignition device, such as a distributor set too far in advance. Either
way it is too-early ignition. Let's not pick nits.

If I'm wrong, tell me.

Uncle Ben
 
Uncle said:
Knocking is unintentional too-early ignition due to compression.
Pre-ignition, according to some, is too-early ignition due to mis-set
ignition device, such as a distributor set too far in advance. Either
way it is too-early ignition. Let's not pick nits.

If I'm wrong, tell me.

Uncle Ben

Hmmm... I think some of the problem has to do with the peak pressure
from the combustion. I THINK lower octane gas burns more quickly and the
pressure peak occurs too far before 'optimum' time. So MAYBE igniting it
a little later helps insure the peak pressure is retarded into a better
'time window'. Preignition and detonation are different - but both
undesireable.

re-reading my earlier post and I was thinking backwards I guess - sorry.

interesting discussion

Carl
 
Kurt said:
It's a simple fact that it does. You can argue why, but advanced timing
will cause spark knock. Just talk to anyone ....(etc)

Of course it does. Because if the spark occurs too much before TDC
(top dead center)
the expansion of the gases tends to push the piston back the wrong way.
The correction is to retard the spark.

But knocking will also occur if something else ignites the fuel/air
mixture prematurely-- namely too high compression. Call it
auto-ignition. It's what makes diesel engines work without any sparks
at all. Even "Computer User" knows that. In diesel engines this
auto-ignition occurs at just the right time, by design. In cars with
ignition systems, however, it is a problem.

And retarding the spark from the electrical ignition system has no
effect at all on auto-ignition. The only way to avoid auto-ignition is
to either reduce the compression ratio of the engine (silly) or add
something to the gasoline to make it less vulnerable to auto-ignition
(tetraethyl lead or more octane).

Don't they teach this stuff anymore?

(Old) Uncle Ben
 
Uncle Ben said:
Of course it does. Because if the spark occurs too much before TDC
(top dead center)
the expansion of the gases tends to push the piston back the wrong way.


The wrong way? The expansion of the gasses only pushes the piston in one
direction! How can that be the "wrong way"?
 
Oscar_Lives said:
The wrong way? The expansion of the gasses only pushes the piston in one
direction! How can that be the "wrong way"?

I think he meant crankshaft. Still, if the peak pressure occurs before
(or much before)TDC you're gonna knock or worse.

Carl
 
Hi All, Just got a used 04 forester XT with 55,000 miles. Question, is
it really necessary to use prem. gas or will mid grade or regular do? I
will probably buy the prem. but I put on a lot of miles and saving some
$$$ would help. Question, with the Toyota Rav4 I traded in at 190,000 I
changed oil at 6,000 is this ok to do with the turbo? I need to get at
least 200,000 mile on this car. Any advice on Subaru would be most
welcome. Thanks

Sorry - this is a long quote from wikipedia;

Detonation

The fuel/air mixture is normally ignited slightly before the point of
maximum compression to allow a small time for the flame-front of the
burning fuel to expand throughout the mixture so that maximum pressure
occurs at the optimum point. The flame-front moves at roughly 33.5
m/second (110 feet/second) during normal combustion. It is only when the
remaining unburned mixture is heated and pressurized by the advancing
flame front for a certain length of time that the detonation occurs. It
is caused by an instantaneous ignition of the remaining fuel/air mixture
in the form of an explosion. The cylinder pressure rises dramatically
beyond its design limits and if allowed to persist detonation will
damage or destroy engine parts.

Detonation can be prevented by:

* The use of a fuel with higher octane rating
* The addition of octane-increasing "lead," isooctane, or other
fuel additives.
* Increasing the amount of fuel injected/inducted (resulting in
lower Air to Fuel Ratio)
* Reduction of cylinder pressure by increasing the engine
revolutions (lower gear), decreasing the manifold pressure (throttle
opening) or reducing the load on the engine, or any combination.
* Reduction of charge (in-cylinder) temperatures (such as through
cooling, water injection or compression ratio reduction).
* Retardation of spark plug ignition.
* Improved combustion chamber design that concentrates mixture near
the spark plug and generates high turbulence to promote fast even burning.
* Use of a spark plug of colder heat range in cases where the spark
plug insulator has become a source of pre-ignition leading to detonation.

Correct ignition timing is essential for optimum engine performance and
fuel efficiency. Modern automotive and small-boat engines have sensors
that can detect knock and retard (delay) the ignition (spark plug
firing) to prevent it, allowing engines to safely use petrol of
below-design octane rating, with the consequence of reduced power and
efficiency.

A knock sensor consists of a small piezoelectric microphone, on the
engine block, connected to the engine's ECU. Spectral analysis is used
to detect the trademark frequency produced by detonation at various RPM.
When detonation is detected the ignition timing is retarded, reducing
the knocking and protecting the engine. See also Automatic Performance
Control (APC).

[edit] Pre-ignition

Pre-ignition is a different phenomenon from detonation, explained above,
and occurs when the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder (or even just
entering the cylinder) ignites before the spark plug fires. Pre-ignition
is caused by an ignition source other than the spark. Heat or hot spots
can buildup in engine intake or cylinder components due to improper
design, for example, spark plugs with heat range too hot for the
conditions, or due to carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. Spark
plugs with a high heat range will run hot enough to burn off deposits
that lead to plug fouling in a worn engine, but the electrode of the
plug itself can occasionally heat soak, and begin glowing hot enough to
become an uncontrolled ignition source on its own. Bits of carbon that
build up in a combustion chamber can also heat soak to the point where
they also are glowing hot and ignite the air-fuel mixture before the
proper time.

Pre-ignition and "dieseling" or "run on" are the same phenomenon, except
in the latter case the engine continues to run after the ignition is
shut off with a hot spot as an ignition source. Pre-ignition might cause
rough running due to the advanced and erratic effective igniton timing
and may cause noise if it leads to detonation. It may also cause
"rumble" which is fast and premature but not detonating combustion.

This heat buildup can only be prevented by eliminating the overheating
(through redesign or cleaning) or the compression effects (by reducing
the load on the engine or temperature of intake air). As such, if
pre-ignition is allowed to continue for any length of time, power output
and fuel economy is reduced and engine damage may result.

Pre-ignition may lead to detonation and detonation may lead to
pre-ignition or either may exist separately.


Carl
 
Carl said:
I think he meant crankshaft. Still, if the peak pressure occurs before
(or much before)TDC you're gonna knock or worse.

Carl


From reading, it appears 'peak pressure' SHOULD occur 14-18 degrees
AFTER TDC. To acheve that - due to the speed of the flame front with
different gasolines and at different rpms - it may be required to have
spark 15-40 degrees BEFORE TDC.

Carl
 
Another point to keep in mind with the analysis, is that although the
bore & stroke are the same for the 2.5 and the 2.5 Turbo the
compression ratios are different as are the performance &
requirements.

Specification* 2.5X 2.5XT
Bore & Stroke 99.5 x 79mm 99.5 x 79mm
Compression 10.0:1 8.4:1
HP 173 @ 6000 RPM 224 @ 5600 RPM
Torque ft lb 166 @ 4400 RPM 226 @ 3600 RPM
Fuel 87 octane 91 octane
Fuel Economy 22/29 M 20/27 M
23/28 A 21/26 A

*Source: 2007 Subaru Forester brochure
http://content.subaru.com/sub/media/pdf/brochure/2007_forester.pdf
 
@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, (e-mail address removed)
says...
Exactly. The problem is that diesel action in a car not designed for it
is trouble. That's why we are concerned with octane.

Even tho it used to be popularly mis-named
"dieseling", it's not simple compression that's
causing knock (else it would happen ALL the time,
continuously, if it ever happened at all. Keep
on reading.
That fusible link was already in series with another fuse.

Ahhh...so we'd prefer to over-heat (before
failure) an extra ten feet or so, of automotive
wiring, before that other fuse opens? And lose
the thermal acting feature of the socket fuse?
 
16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>, (e-mail address removed)
says...

No, lol.

Knocking, AKA detonation, is caused by an
alternative ignition source in the combustion
chamber, which is lighting off a second (or more)
flame front that collides with the flame front
propagating from the spark plug. It's happening
simultaneously or after the spark ignition.
Knocking is unintentional too-early ignition due to compression.

No, my friendly rice-burner. See above, and:
http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Det
onation/Page_6.php

....and no, it's not COMPRESSION...

Can an engine be damaged by
knock/ping/detonation?
Hint: modern engines have knock sensors.

http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Det
onation/Page_2.php
Pre-ignition, according to some, is too-early ignition due to mis-set
ignition device, such as a distributor set too far in advance.

Some would believe par-boiled equals the real-
deal. Pre-ignition is early ignition, from an
alternative heat source, WAY before the spark
ignition, while the piston is still being
mechanically driven to compress the fuel-air
charge. Visualize the piston being pushed down,
while the burning charge is trying to push it up.

How much of THAT do you think an engine can
stand?

http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Det
onation/Page_6.php
 
80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>, (e-mail address removed)
says...
But knocking will also occur if something else ignites the fuel/air
mixture prematurely-- namely too high compression. Call it
auto-ignition.

Call it negatory, Ghost Rider.

What made the compression "too high"? Did the
piston grow, or did the cylinder shrink?
It's what makes diesel engines work without any sparks
at all. Even "Computer User" knows that. In diesel engines this
auto-ignition occurs at just the right time, by design. In cars with
ignition systems, however, it is a problem.


Don't they teach this stuff anymore?

Gawd, I sure hope not!
 
CompUser said:
80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>, (e-mail address removed)
says...
....
What made the compression "too high"? Did the
piston grow, or did the cylinder shrink?
Too high for the fuel, e.g. regular instead of premium.

Sorry. I assumed too much intelligence.
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
14,942
Messages
70,609
Members
8,547
Latest member
summerinwa

Latest Threads

Back
Top