Impreza automatic vs manual

!!bogus said:
I finally bought my impreza TS. I am not an experienced driver and
I've never driven in snow before. In fact I try avoiding doing so as
much as possible. I've never driven a car with ABS before too. My
question is... is this ABS supposed to work fulltime or only in
certain situations?

Thanks


Anti-lock brake systems work by employing wheel speed sensors that can tell
when a wheel locks up under braking. When this condition is detected, the
ABS system modulates brake pressure to the affected wheel (or sometimes to
multiple wheels, depending on how cheap an ABS system you have). This has
the effect of "pulsing" the brakes very rapidly, so that the wheel
alternately locks and is realeased very quickly. The point of this is to
retain steering control under heavy braking and, according to the
literature, reduce stopping distance. When the front wheels are locked
during braking, you have zero steering control. And when the rears lock,
your car is extremely prone to oversteer. For these reasons, I don't
contest that ABS achieves the first claimed benefit (of retaining steering
control). It is worth noting, however, that one can retain steering control
under hard braking *without* ABS by simply paying attention and modulating
brake pressure manually to prevent wheel lockup.

This leads me to the second claim about ABS -- namely, that it reduces
stopping distance. A car will stop faster with ABS than with the wheels
locked up, this I don't doubt. And so for a severely unskilled driver --
one who's incapable of anything more than simply standing on the brake pedal
when something unexpected happens -- ABS may well result in a shorter
stopping distance. But because the brakes are alternately engaged and
released with ABS, stopping distance is actually longer than if continuous
brake pressure is applied just below the point of lockup. (This is called
"threshold braking.") The benefits of threshold braking as compared to
ABS-controlled braking seems by my experience to be related directly to
available road adhesion. On dry pavement, the benefit of threshold braking
over ABS might only be 3 or 4 feet in a stop from 70 mph. But as roads
deteriorate to the snow-covered conditions we often experience in northern
Michigan's winter months, the advantage of threshold braking over ABS is
significant. It can literally mean the difference between stopping before
an intersection or continuing into the path of that big truck. I therefore
prefer vehicles whose ABS systems can be manually disengaged by the driver
from within the cockpit (as my Audi has). If you are driving an
ABS-equipped car in the winter months, I would strongly advise you to allow
*lots* of stopping distance. And if you see me and my Audi out on a snowy
road, don't attempt to keep up or to wait as long as I do to stop unless you
know what you're doing. You'll likely end up in a ditch or connecting with
another vehicle.

It is worth noting that any ABS system will only make itself known when it
senses wheel lockup. As long as you never brake hard enough to lock a
wheel, you'll never know that your car has ABS. ABS is nearly standard
equipment any more -- only the very cheapest of cars still don't have it.
You can probably take this to mean that it's not somthing you should worry
about. But as with any aspect of your car's handling characteristics, it's
important to know both the benefits and the limitations of ABS, and drive
accordingly.

Perhaps the best advice I can give regarding ABS or any other aspect of
driving is to not be afraid to find out what your car's limitations are and
what it does when you exceed them (under appropriate conditions, of course).
The experience will help you to avoid exceeding those limitations in
conditions when such shenanigans are not appropriate. But more
importantly, it will familiarize you with just what your car will do when
those limitations are exceeded. Such familiarity will help to remove the
"panic" feeling that so often paralyzes drivers in emergency situations,
thereby allowing you to do more than just mash the brake pedal to the floor.
It will make you a better -- and safer -- driver.

- Greg Reed

--
1976 Cadillac Fleetwood 75 9-Pass sedan
(FS: http://www.dataspire.com/caddy)
1989 Audi 200 Turbo Quattro 5-Speed sedan
2000 Oldsmobile Intrigue
2001 Chevy Astro AWD (wife's)
2005 Subaru Legacy GT Wagon (when available in U.S.)
 
andy said:
I have always heard that ABS can pump the brakes more than a
human. I have also heard teachers instruct on how ABS is safer in most
instances than not having it.....

Oh, I would not be surprised if all that was true. Hey, they didn't go
to all the trouble to engineer and build it for nothin'. It's just that
it can't help but increase the flat-out, "I need to stop NOW," _stopping
distance_ and, in the places where I drive, I think I prefer the option.
The way and the places I drive, by the time I'm pressing hard on the
brakes, it's because I would like to STOP.

It just seems suicidal to drive around with a system that intentionally
increases my stopping distance. It seems like such a _liability_ for the
manufacturer: why won't somebody sue because the "safety" equipment
slammed them into something? Let me put it this way: I've had way more
close calls since I started driving with this ABS, then I've had sliding
out of control on slick ice, since I was about 17.
 
John Opezdol said:
To this point. I believe on Acura NSX abs can be turned on/off with a button
on the console. But automakers seem to assume that just because a car is
affordable there is always an idiot in the driver's seat. It's an IQ test in
a sense. If an operator is so dumb that he can't locate the ABS fuse and
pluck it out for the winter then he should definitely have ABS on.

If all it takes is pulling out the fuse, it should be trivial
to wire up a switch to let you switch ABS on and off. I don't
know if this could be done on the fly (does it require a self-test
at startup?) but it would spare you the trouble of pulling the
fuse if you do it frequently. It would probably be a good idea to
put a fuse in such a fuse bypass to prevent whatever the original fuse
was intended to prevent.

-DanD
 
andy said:
people are diabling(?sp) it instead of using it?


I again pulled the ABS fuse. Because when I get one wheel on ice, the
brakes to all four wheels are disabled!!!


I was led to believe that other makers DON'T do this. I have seen
reference to 3 channel and 4 channel ABS.


Anyone with another brand and how they work?


JerryO
 
My first post here...

Being an Australian, with an early upbringing in a rallying environment,
I feel I may have a contribution to make on the topic.

ABS is designed as a safety factor. It is not designed as a cure-all
for bad driving technique. The ultimate objective of ABS is not to
REDUCE STOPPING distance......... it is to REDUCE LOSS OF STEERING /
TRACTION during braking due to wheel lock-up, consequently adding a
small amount to the stopping distance.

It is designed so that when somebody gets into a situation where they DO
just close eyes, grip wheel, plant both feet on brake pedal and pray,
they are not going to lose steering control, and are still able to open
the eyes, steer as best as possible away from the hazard, at the expense
of a few extra metres (or feet, for our North American & neighbouring
readers)

For those without ABS, a sudden stab on the brakes can very easily (and
very often) leave you without ANY vehicle control whatsoever. On a
bitumen or paved road situation, this is very dangerous. ABS eliminates
the tendency to lose steering WHERE TRACTION IS SUFFICIENT TO BEGIN WITH.

For those situations where traction is limited, then I agree that in
certain circumstances, ABS can be detrimental. To overcome this, if you
have done some defensive driving and feel comfortable with your
abilities, then remove the ABS fuse when driving in those conditions.
However, for those who do NOT have competent defensive abilities, or who
are in slippery situations, then the ONLY recourse is simple mathematics:

REDUCE YOUR TRAVEL SPEED.......INCREASE YOUR FOLLOWING DISTANCE.......
INCREASE YOUR ALERTNESS AND AWARENESS......INCREASE YOUR CHANCES OF
YOUAND YOUR CAR SURVIVING A COLLISION



Regards to All
Osiris

1991 Australian spec RS Turbo Liberty (Legacy) Sedan Manual(2.0L T)
1985 Australian spec L-Series Leone FWD Manual (1.8L)
2001 Australian spec GX Ltd Liberty (Legacy) Wagon Manual(2.0L)
 
My first post here...

Being an Australian, with an early upbringing in a rallying environment,
I feel I may have a contribution to make on the topic.

ABS is designed as a safety factor. It is not designed as a cure-all
for bad driving technique. The ultimate objective of ABS is not to
REDUCE STOPPING distance......... it is to REDUCE LOSS OF STEERING /
TRACTION during braking due to wheel lock-up, consequently adding a
small amount to the stopping distance.

It is designed so that when somebody gets into a situation where they DO
just close eyes, grip wheel, plant both feet on brake pedal and pray,
they are not going to lose steering control, and are still able to open
the eyes, steer as best as possible away from the hazard, at the expense
of a few extra metres (or feet, for our North American & neighbouring
readers)

For those without ABS, a sudden stab on the brakes can very easily (and
very often) leave you without ANY vehicle control whatsoever. On a
bitumen or paved road situation, this is very dangerous. ABS eliminates
the tendency to lose steering WHERE TRACTION IS SUFFICIENT TO BEGIN WITH.

For those situations where traction is limited, then I agree that in
certain circumstances, ABS can be detrimental. To overcome this, if you
have done some defensive driving and feel comfortable with your
abilities, then remove the ABS fuse when driving in those conditions.
However, for those who do NOT have competent defensive abilities, or who
are in slippery situations, then the ONLY recourse is simple mathematics:

REDUCE YOUR TRAVEL SPEED.......INCREASE YOUR FOLLOWING DISTANCE.......
INCREASE YOUR ALERTNESS AND AWARENESS......INCREASE YOUR CHANCES OF
YOUAND YOUR CAR SURVIVING A COLLISION



Regards to All
Osiris

1991 Australian spec RS Turbo Liberty (Legacy) Sedan Manual(2.0L T)
1985 Australian spec L-Series Leone FWD Manual (1.8L)
2001 Australian spec GX Ltd Liberty (Legacy) Wagon Manual(2.0L)
 
Remember, too, in all this discussion of the "WRX
ABS" and "why would Subaru put ABS in that does
this", that Subaru's ABS was subcontracted out.

It's a BOSCH ABS unit, running Bosch's code, that
does the antilock braking on Subarus, and a whole
*bunch* of other makes and models of cars.

That said, there are documents on the net [1]
showing Bosch had some programming errors in
Impreza models prior to 2003 (or part of
MY03)...complaints in US led NHTSA to question
SOA and FHI, and it's all there to see. Subaru &
FHI pinged Bosch hard for the wheel-size sensing
non-update issue, but stated the ABS activation
during rough-surface wheel lift was normal
function.

I was concerned with the ABS performance after
reading the documents, and paid close attention
to the braking...I'm satisfied with it on my 04.


Steve

[1] Try googling "ABS activation WRX Subaru FHI
Bosch NHTSA pdf" and you'll find it. Some of
it's in english, too!
 
Dan Duncan said:
If all it takes is pulling out the fuse, it should be trivial
to wire up a switch to let you switch ABS on and off.

Pulling the fuse does result in the "ABS" warning light staying on.
I don't know if this could be done on the fly (does it require a
self-test at startup?)

Good point. I believe that was the case, when I did it.
 
JerryO said:
I again pulled the ABS fuse. Because when I get one wheel on ice, the
brakes to all four wheels are disabled!!!

You may be mistaken. Each one is individualy controlled. That dont have
cross-input... so theres no way for another brake to do it because another
had. Theres no communication between the wheels in other words.
I was led to believe that other makers DON'T do this. I have seen
reference to 3 channel and 4 channel ABS.


Anyone with another brand and how they work?


JerryO

Your car has 4 channel ABS right? Each wheel is individual in behavior.
The computer isnt even wired in a way that would allow the behavior of one
wheel to affect the behavior of another wheel. A long round-a-bout way of
saying... Its impossible.

Unless possesed by a demon of course.


Rob
 
Rob Duncan said:
You may be mistaken. Each one is individualy controlled. That dont have
cross-input... so theres no way for another brake to do it because another
had. Theres no communication between the wheels in other words.

Communication between the wheels isn't required for that to happen.
Your car has 4 channel ABS right? Each wheel is individual in behavior.
The computer isnt even wired in a way that would allow the behavior of one
wheel to affect the behavior of another wheel. A long round-a-bout way of
saying... Its impossible.

I don't think you understand the system correctly. There's a central control unit. The
wheels don't need to know what the other wheels are doing. Only the control unit
needs to know. And it can disable all the wheels. Never experienced it, but I'm not
going to tell people who claim they have that it's impossible.
 
Rob Duncan said:
Your car has 4 channel ABS right? Each wheel is individual in behavior.
The computer isnt even wired in a way that would allow the behavior of one
wheel to affect the behavior of another wheel.

I'm skeptical of that. Since one central control unit controls all wheels, how is it possible
it isn't wired in such a way that it can control all wheels? How is it wired in such a way
that it couldn't disable one in response to the signals from another? You could claim it
shouldn't be programmed that way, but it wouldn't change the fact that it might be.

Anyway we are told that to some extent that's what ABS is supposed to do, to help
maintain vehicle control. If one side has no traction it backs off on the other side too.
From people's stories in this thread, it sounds like for at least some model years, it
backs off way too far though
 
Your car has 4 channel ABS right? Each wheel is individual in behavior.
The computer isnt even wired in a way that would allow the behavior of one
wheel to affect the behavior of another wheel. A long round-a-bout way of
saying... Its impossible.

Unless possesed by a demon of course.


Rob

4 channel does not mean totally independent.

http://ken-gilbert.com/wrx/mans/abs.pdf

read and learn.

ken
 
David said:
Communication between the wheels isn't required for that to happen.


I don't think you understand the system correctly. There's a central control unit. The
wheels don't need to know what the other wheels are doing. Only the control unit
needs to know. And it can disable all the wheels. Never experienced it, but I'm not
going to tell people who claim they have that it's impossible.

Im not saying nothing happened. I dont think its due to the abs though.
The control unit isnt designed in a way that would allow it to affect the
behavior of one wheel, based on the behavior of another wheel. It just isnt
designed to do it.


Rob
 
David said:
I'm skeptical of that. Since one central control unit controls all wheels, how is it possible
it isn't wired in such a way that it can control all wheels? How is it wired in such a way
that it couldn't disable one in response to the signals from another? You could claim it
shouldn't be programmed that way, but it wouldn't change the fact that it
might be.

I understand what youre saying now. Right. If the computer was wired and
programmed to affect a wheel, based on the input from another wheel... it
could do that. But its not wired or programmed that way. It could be, but
its not.
Anyway we are told that to some extent that's what ABS is supposed to do, to help
maintain vehicle control. If one side has no traction it backs off on the other side too.
From people's stories in this thread, it sounds like for at least some model years, it
backs off way too far though

ABS scared the shit out of me the first time I had to come to a stop in the
snow. I was not prepared to drive staight on through the intersection...
rather than just coming to a stop. That was the point in which I decided Id
better learn something about these things. We have Powell's, the largest
bookstore in the world, and man do I love getting lost in their auto
section. Im trying to think of a book I read that had a chapter devoted to
some of the newer ABS systems. I'll think of it. But this I know, if its
not programmed to do it, it wont.


Rob
 

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