Hesitation & surging in 2006 Forrester

[k. ote]

Subnote to the story: when SOA called me today to tell me they were

closing my case because the consider the car to be driving normally,
they offfered me a $1000 "customer gift certificate" (or some other
term, can't recall exactly), I suppose in lieu of exercising on my
rights! Wonder what I would have had to sign to get that $1000!

I would be very amused if this surging he's talking about is just turbo
lag.. 3K RPM is right around that point for that vehicle, isn't it?

"I'm sorry, sir, but that's the way the engine is built: a turbo doesn't
actually deliver linear performance..."

 

[ssslither9]

I would be very amused if this surging he's talking about is just turbo
lag.. 3K RPM is right around that point for that vehicle, isn't it?

"I'm sorry, sir, but that's the way the engine is built: a turbo doesn't
actually deliver linear performance..."

hmm. mine's not a turbo. and i happen not to be a sir. wonder if
that's part of the problem, eh?

 

[k. ote]

hmm. mine's not a turbo. and i happen not to be a sir. wonder if
that's part of the problem, eh?

Your first note didn't actually specify what kind of car you were
complaining about; however, I do highly recommend you connect with other
2006 Forester owners and make sure that it's not just something that is in
fact normal after all.

My vehicle (2004 WRX STi, Canadian spec) does strange things at odd times
all the time. Here's a brief list:

.. When it's cold, the clutch shudders if I rev too low when pulling away in
1st gear. When it warms back up, all's well.

.. If I put the DCCD on anything but wide-open and turn tightly and sharply
and basically do rings in a parking lot, I get a horrible, metal-on-metal
grinding noise.

.. When going around some corners where the pavement is uneven, I get jerked
back and forth like a big giant kid's hand is flinging me forward and back
as the AWD compensates, wheel to wheel, for the uneven terrain.

.. On certain turns, I can feel the auto-mode DCCD react to the higher
sideways g-force and induce (or eliminate) passenger-noticeable understeer,
non-linearly with the throttle position.

.. Going at about 20-40kph down a hill (or most anywhere else for that
matter,) if I lift my foot immediately off the throttle, there is a
definite forward-and-back "surging" which is caused by the manual
transmission, especially when I'm in a lower gear.

.. Depending on the steepness of the hill, my 1st gear is very tall;
therefore, it will rev up quite a bit just coasting in gear, but I know
that's normal for me. The weight of the vehicle and occupants is enough to
overcome the inertia of the engine up to a certain point. That's where my
brakes come in.

.. At ~200kph, there is a loud whistling that is emitted from the
driver's-side rear-view mirror. If I tuck the mirror in, the noise goes
away.

.. The front-wheels' limited-slip differential can make handling much
different from a normal WRX in terms of understeer around corners.

These are all quirks of the vehicle, or normal behaviour because of the
nature of the vehicle. I've seen a handful of people now who've purchased a
2004 STi and complained bitterly about whirring, whistling, bumping,
jolting noises and behaviour and each time I've been surprised because in
my case I simply found out what exactly was going on and realised that it
was perfectly normal. Eventually, the noises and behaviour stopped
bothering me because I *knew* what was going on.

I apologise if I sound like I'm being unsympathetic, but if this is your
first Subaru, there are definitely weird things you're going to have to get
used to. I'm not in a position to claim your vehicle is behaving normally;
however, I personally know of two people who found the STi's personality to
be too much for them to cope with.

So, I guess my advice is to learn more about what's going on, and learn more
about your Forester's mechanical systems. Learn about the ECU. (For the
STi, for example, its fuel maps are far more detailed than the WRX' are.)
Try to reasonably extract information about what SOA thinks is going on.
Find out the name of the Tech who went out for a ride with you, and get his
technical opinion as to what's going on and whether it's normal. Go around
to different Subaru dealerships and test-drive other Foresters.

Keep detailed notes, and try to be constructive with your time instead of
worrying about it so much: if it is normal, do you think you could get used
to it? Has it put your life in jeopardy, or can you foresee situations
where it might put your life in jeopardy? Would it be too difficult for you
to depress the accelerator a millimeter or two while you're driving
downhill?

We aren't going to be able to help you, much, because none of us can drive
over and sit in your car and tell whether it's something we've felt before
or not. In my opinion, you're wasting your time hanging out here *at this
point in time.*

Approach it with a calm head, draw some conclusions about your vehicle and
yourself, and then act. Do you have any family who might know how to drive
a standard who might also be willing to lend a hand?

 

[Michael Pardee]

hmm. mine's not a turbo. and i happen not to be a sir. wonder if
that's part of the problem, eh?

As much as it pains me, there is still a lot of being dismissive of women by
the automotive industry in general. Maybe not so bad when you are preparing
to plunk down many thousands on their merchandise, but if you want
service....

Mike

 

[ssslither9]

Hello k. ote. I appreciate your taking the time to reply. However,
there is no way in hell that the way this car is driving, is normal.
Pressing the accelerator a bit when going downhill makes no difference
at all.

It's true that I'm not car-knowledgeable, nor do I intend to learn more
about my car's mechanical systems. It's true that this is my first
Subaru, but I come from a family of Subaru owner/drivers; they've
driven this car and none think it is normal. Remember that the
dealership's mechanic and salesman also drove this car, and do not
think it is normal. I think that's enough evidence that I am not
merely a car-illiterate who's misinterpreting things. (by the way, k.
ote: I find this sentence - "Do you have any family who might know how
to drive a standard who might also be willing to lend a hand?" pretty
funny since I've always driven a manual transmission.)

My purpose in posting here was/is as much to let others know what I'm
going through (so perhaps they can avoid the same thing), as to gain
knowledge of the problem.

At any rate, I have since spoken to the dealership's manager and he
assures me that if SOA doesn't come through, he will "do right" by me
since his people (mechanic, salesman) have told him something's
definitely wrong with the car. It's been almost a week, however, and
I've heard from neither dealership nor SOA, so perhaps it's just more
runaround.

Thanks for your response, though. Just remember that lots of people
who buy cars, aren't acquainted with the details of the car's
mechanics, nor should they have to be to get an obvious problem fixed.

 

[Andy Leszczynski]

Hello. About 3 weeks ago I purchased a 2006 Forrester. Right away, I
began having this problem with the car: when going downhill, the car
begins bucking and surging at about 3000 rpm (in second gear and
higher).

[...]

I did not hear about that problem before. Whats is fifferent between
2005 and 2006 models, engine ECU what casues that...

 

[Skylandia]

Hello. About 3 weeks ago I purchased a 2006 Forrester. Right away, I
began having this problem with the car: when going downhill, the car
begins bucking and surging at about 3000 rpm (in second gear and
higher).

I took it back to the dealership and was able to immediately
demonstrate the problem to the technician. He said it was most likely
a load-balancing problem, and that the fix was probably a computer
download similar to one he knew about in the 2005 Outback. He said he
would contact Subaru America (or whatever the corporate parent is
called) to confirm that and would get back to me that day. I asked him
if he thought the car was safe to drive (I live in the foothills of the
rockies so I'm going downhill a LOT). He said yes. I drove the car
off the lot, reassured.

Later that day, the head of the service dept. (not the technician)
called me and said that Subaru America had indicated they did NOT have
a fix for this problem. In fact, they had never heard of the problem
in 2006 Forresters. They were going to send their technicians to the
dealership to hook up the car to their diagnostic computers, as the
first step of figuring out the problem. However, they wanted the
dealership to be sure and tell me that more than likely, they would NOT
have an immediate fix for the problem. They suspected the problem was
due to the engine/transmission being NEW, and that it would most likely
right itself over time. The dealership said that Subaru America would
probably like to follow my car "over time" to see how/if the problem
resolved.

I told them this was unacceptable; if they wanted to take this car back
to "follow the problem", that's fine, I would be happy to take another
2006 Forrester that did not demonstrate the problem.

You can imagine where that statement got me - nowhere! I have a case
opened with the dealership (a technical case) and a case opened with
Subaru America (a customer service case). I have an appt. to bring the
car into the dealership at the end of this month, for the "hook up"
with the Subaru technicians. I am reading up on lemon laws in my state
(colorado).

Any advice?

thanks in advance!

 

[Skylandia]

HI

Another 06 Forester that surges. Had the car two months and the
problem is getting worse ----especially coming down a steep grade and
coasting---Mammoth to Bishop---drop of 3000 ft in 15 miles. Also tach
fluxuations at long lights--500 rpm---even when the engine is warm.
Had it into the dealer once and they put it on the
computer---result---the Foresters do that. Now when I take it back
I'll have some backup and won't be brushed off as a "blonde" Hope you
don't mind my printing out the e-mails---will leave off the addresses.

I test drove three different Foresters before buying---but always on
the flat and not for more than 20 minutes in warm weather. Ordered
mine from a dealer in northern CA ---I live in southern CA. Notice a
little bit on the maiden voyage but just thought it would settle out as
the miles were put on. NOT. What worries me is that this winter when
I really need the control on an icy road heading for the ski slopes
with my grand kids that I won't have it with the surging.

Thanks for the input everyone---maybe together we can all get Subaru
off their backsides and get the problem solved

 

[ssslither9]

Hey Skylandia. I have been invited back to the dealership to drive a
different Forrester 06, to see if the same problem occurs. The
dealership has promised to "make me happy" if SOA (subaru of america)
won't. SOA has offered - get this - to give me a $2K trade-in
allowance on an AUTOMATIC Forrester 06. I surely don't want that but
I'll take it if I drive another Forrester 06 and find the same problem.
(Though the dealership has invited me to drive a different Forrester
06, they are not yet saying they will give me a different one.)

Reading your email, I'm less optimistic that I will be able to find an
06 Forrester that doesn't exhibit this problem. I sure hope I do not
have to take an automatic! I do not WANT to drive an automatic car,
and it seems unfair that may be my only alternative to driving this
malfunctioning manual 06 Forrester.

Thanks....feel free to write me offline and commiserate!

I am going to drive the different Forester in a few hours, so I will
post back soon and let everyone know the results.

 

[bob.cratermeister]

Not sure if this would apply to you or not... but it might be worth a
try...

There has been a similar thread on a local Ottawa Subaru club forum,
and two members reported having the same hesitation/surging problem
that you've experienced. Their problem went away after they replaced
the spark plugs. One member reported that his Impreza ran much more
smoothly after he switched from the stock Champion plugs to NGK Iridium
plugs. If your car has a regular 2.5L engine, then my guess is that
using NGK copper plugs would work just fine. I believe the turbo
charged 2.5L engines require platium or iridium plugs. Your dealership
should be able to help you choose which ones to try, if you decide to
go down this road.

I have a 2005 X Forester with a manual trans and I haven't experienced
this particular problem. I've no idea if this would fix the problem
with your car, but new plugs are cheap, so it's probably worth trying...

 

[k. ote]

Thanks for your response, though. Just remember that lots of people
who buy cars, aren't acquainted with the details of the car's
mechanics, nor should they have to be to get an obvious problem fixed.

I am a *firm* believer that the owner of the car should do all they can to
familiarise themselves with as much of the inner workings and mechanics of
the car as they can possibly absorb.

I have a problem with people who aren't interested in learning the details
of a 3000-lb box of metal that hurtles down the road at a break-neck 75mph,
opposed by other 3000-lb boxes of metal doing the same speed, in the
opposite direction, often divided merely by a yellow painted line in the
middle of the road, given that those same people are climbing inside
voluntarily!

Only humans would think of such a death trap gauntlet.

It is your duty to learn more about your car. For your own, and your
family's, sakes.

 

[k. ote]

Hey Skylandia. I have been invited back to the dealership to drive a
different Forrester 06, to see if the same problem occurs. The

So what kind of gas are you filling it up with? Have you tried using a
higher octane gasoline to see if that makes a difference? Try at least two
tankfuls.

 

[Skylandia]

Didn't know if you were still bloging on this site---my 06 Forester
goes in tomorrow for a once over and I've downloaded several
descriptions of the problem---

Let me know how you made out with the dealer

(e-mail address removed)

also known as Skylandia

 

[ssslither9]

Sorry to take so long in getting back to this!

I test-drove another 06 Forester, and it has the same issue, though to
a slightly lesser extent. So I guess SOA is right-on that this car is
"operating as designed".

I suggest anyone considering buying a manual-transmission 06 Forester,
be sure to perform this test to make sure you can tolerate this car's
operation: on a road that has a moderate downhill slope, drive the car
in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear at a steady rate of speed, with RPMs between
2500 and 3500. Make sure you can tolerate the surging, hesitation, and
uneven feel of the transmission. Ask your salesman about it! Then, as
long as you're OK with it, buy the car! I highly recommend it in every
OTHER way.

<sarcasm off>

So now I have a couple of options. The dealership is being completely
cooperative; although we haven't talked the actual dollars of a
trade-in, they are fine with me trading the car for a manual 06 Outback
or an automatic 06 Forester. They claim we can arrange it so I won't
incur a financial loss. (SOA is offering me a $2000 "customer
satisfaction" coupon if I trade my current car in for an automatic 06
Forester). I've test-driven both the automatic Forester and the
Outback, and frankly, don't care for them at all. The automatic, I
simply don't like/want because I greatly perfer manual transmissions.
I was *hoping* to like the Outback, but 1) lower headroom, 2) less
nimble handling, 3) slightly less gas mileage, 4) slightly higher cost
are all dissuaders. (The only plus is it's quieter.)

My next step is to take the dealership up on its suggestion that I take
the Outback for a day and drive it around, particularlly in my
mountainous neighborhood, to see if I can sort of get used to it.

I'll most likely end up taking the Outback and trading it in after a
couple of years. What will my opinion of Subaru be at that time?
Well, I have to say that the dealership has been so cooperative that my
opinion of them might offset my opinion of SOA, which I think has
handled this in a BAD way.

By the way, another person wrote me and has filed a report about this
same issue with NHTSA. You can find that report at
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/home.cfm .

Good luck to everyone who has the misfortune of finding themselves in
this situation. Caveat emptor!