Ethanol conversion?

If the computer, O2 sensors, and fuel injectors cannot adapt 'rich'
enough you'll be running the engine very lean, which will destroy it
in short order.

I suspect the fellow who changes his injectors may have to run E85 at
this point? If he swapped out injectors that delivered more fuel given
the same 'signal' from the ECU, he may have a problem with the signal
being adapted 'lean' enough to run on 'straight' gas.


Perhaps a useful experiment would be to fill the tank with various
mixtures of 'gas' and 'E85' and see how much E85 it can tolerate?


Dave


Danger will robinson!

There's a reason that Gas-ethanol blends come in 85% gasoline or 85%
ethanol.

Basically, you can disolve about 20% gas in ethanol, or you can
dissolve about 20% ethanol in gas.

Once you move much outside those ranges, the gas and ethanol won't
form a solution. THe two will separate, and that could cause
disasterous consequences for your fuel lines (I'm not sure exactly
what happens, but having two fuels in your tank at the same time with
very different properties can't be good.
 
Yes, the estimates run from a few percent to 15 percent worse mileage.
And the price is not lower enough to compensate.

Just as a data point, I started routinely using E15 about a month ago,
and noticed a consistant 20% *increase* in mileage.
 
I recently learned that the energy cost to produce ethanol for cars is
much less than the energy benefit, contrary to popular belief. (In
fact, the reverse is true for gasoline, which has not seemed to
prevent our huge use of gasoline.) Further, if we are at or near
"peak oil," the price of gasoline is never going to come down and stay
down. Biofuels (not hydrogen nor hybrids IMHO) are our only hope if
we are to stop sending boatloads of money to people who would destroy
us.

So I have looked at the pros and cons of using E85 (85% ethanol, 15%
gasoline), which has recently become available in Albany, NY, near
where I live. It seems that Subarus love ethanol, which is close to a
racing fuel for them. The energy density of ethanol is lower than that
of gasoline, but what counts is miles per dollar, not miles per
gallon. (Stories of corrosion damage by ethanol are apparently not
true for modern cars, in which neoprene has replaced lots of the
rubber that used to be used. Methanol is a different story.)

One can buy kits to convert any fuel-injected car for ethanol/gasoline
use in any proportion. The kits are supposed to fool your ECU into
enriching the mixtures without lighting up the Check Engine light.
One intrepid WRX user on another forum just replaced his fuel
injectors with others of a greater nozzle diameter, as I understand
it.

What happens if one fills up with E85 and does nothing to "convert"
his car? I imagine that performance would suffer somewhat, but would
the car run OK although somewhat lean? Is it really necessary to
convert?

DO NOT just dump a tankful of E85 in your car! See
http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/conversion.php The major issue
they discuss is a potential increase in emissions (which could be a
felony). The ethanol content can also dry out any rubber hoses are
seals over time, leading to all sorts of issues with leakage.

Dan D
'99 Impreza 2.5 RS (son's)
Central NJ USA
 
Uncle said:
enough, it can be solved the way Brazil solved it: require all cars
sold in the US to be flex-fuel. It goes against my libertarian
principles, but solves the nucleation problem -- how to get a user
base large enough to repay the massive installation of ethanol pumps.

Hi,

It would be nice to have a "simple" answer, but we all know what they
say about simple answers to complex problems...

Anyway, I, too, don't generally look at government as the first line of
defense against all the ills that face us in our daily lives, but there
will have to be some kind of government intervention to make any of this
"change" work.

The first thing to look at is supply and demand. It's estimated approx
84 mil bbls of oil are produced daily, worldwide, and the US uses 21 mil
of them, or 25% of the world's total. (If the "peak oil" folks are to be
believed, that production figure's not likely to increase, but likely
will decrease, in the next couple of decades or so.) That's a lot of oil
for 5% of the world's population to use. And I suppose it wasn't so
problematic when the other 75% supplied the needs and wants of the rest
of the world.

But in the last 25 yrs or so, we've added roughly 25% of the world's
total population to the list of those demanding oil. While we were
complaining of gutless econobox cars in the '70s due to the oil
shortages of the time, the Chinese were riding bicycles. Today, you see
pictures from China and you won't see any more bicycles evident in their
cities than in pictures from the US. But you WILL see thousands,
millions, soon 10s of millions of cars that didn't even exist "back
then!" They've all gotta be fed from that one big pot of oil the world
shares. And the next few decades will see ANOTHER 25% of the world's
population demanding much of that oil as India becomes a prime player.
So we've gotta look at ~3 billion potential new consumers in the next
few years over what we had just a couple of decades ago. That's 10
people looking at the same bbl of oil for every single person in the US,
who used to think he was the only person in the world looking at it, and
may well have been, at the time. Prices are NOT going to go down nor are
supplies going to increase enough to fill that demand w/o serious change
in our usage habits.

So... while we're driving around like there's no tomorrow, let's stop at
Wally World and drop $3 on a Chinese calculator (made and shipped w/
some of that oil that used to be "ours" if we think selfishly) and start
crunching some numbers. Let's look at the average person's consumption
in the US. Or at least California where I live, since I've seen some
numbers for here.

The average Californian supposedly drives 15k mi/yr, and uses 1200 US
gal of fuel doing it. That's an average of 12.5 mpg. Which means,
despite CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy law) and other moves to
increase economy, we're virtually EXACTLY where we were roughly 35 yrs
ago when CAFE came to be. We have an estimated 30 mil cars registered in
this state, approx 3/4 of a car per person! Let's say half of those
cars, 15 mil, are actually being driven on a regular basis, as that
number roughly reflects the number of licensed drivers. Let's fire up
the calculator, then, and see what it tells us (if I slipped a decimal
place somewhere, please correct me):

It looks like we drive on average well over 600 mil miles PER DAY just
in this one State. At an avg of 12.5 mpg, that's ~49 mil gallons of
fuel. PER DAY. Since the best we can get out of a bbl of oil is about
50% gas/diesel, we're talking ~98 mil gals of oil. PER DAY. Divided by
42 gal/bbl, it's about 2.3 mil bbls. That's about 2.75% of the ENTIRE
world's production. For 1/4 of a percent of its population!

Now, let's change that average fuel economy just a little bit, to 13.5
mpg. That's less than 10% better. What does our cheap calculator tell us
now? Well, it looks like we cut our fuel consumption to about 46 mil
gal/day, or 91 mil gals of oil (2.175 mil bbls.) That's a cut of about
5% or so per day.

Doesn't seem like much, but it's easy enough to do, IF someone will
stand up and make it happen. The auto makers will try to tell us they
can't do it, or the market "demands" the gas hogs, or some other excuse
for maintaining the status quo (which not so strangely corresponds w/
their highest profit points.) The "market" generally isn't well enough
educated to figure out this "supply-demand" thing and how it applies to
THEM. Or they just don't care, thinking their part in the big picture is
insignificant. This leaves government intervention.

So we first saw CAFE in the '70s. Good idea. Bad application. Why? Too
many loopholes. The mandatory fleet average of ~27 mpg for cars was a
good idea. But it let trucks pretty much out of the picture. For working
trucks, yes, we need exemption or dispensation of some sort. But when
all someone has to do is raise their car an inch or so (recent Outback
change comes to mind!) to qualify it as a "truck" to gain an exemption
from fuel economy rules, it all becomes a big hoax.

The new "fuel economy standards" law passed by Congress recently made
virtually everyone in the auto industry upset. "Oh, we just can't meet
those standards!" Bull-oney. The standards are based on sales of
vehicles. Sell more hi-mileage vehicles than lo-mileage gas hogs, and
it's no problem, but how do we change the sales figures? The auto
industry wants us to believe the public wants "bigger" and "more
horsepower." Witness ads for the recent Forester: "bigger, bigger,
bigger" keeps coming up. And why does the public "want" such vehicles?

Well, advertising plays a huge role, as we're "told" we "need" such
things. And then, there's no penalty for waste. This is where,
unfortunately, government will have to step in. Let's look at a radical
approach to tax laws as one way. Post-war Britain provided an early
example, w/ their "taxable horsepower" ratings. Ok, it wasn't a perfect
system, but it was a step in the direction of conservation.

So we look at the "average" fuel economy requirement, give it a
tolerance range, and let people buy cars within that range w/ no strings
attached, other than the market's price of fuel. That will have just a
minor impact. We've given tax incentives for purchasing economical
vehicles in the past, but that hasn't changed things much, so let's go
the OTHER way, and as soon as one drops below a certain point, we start
taxing the bejeebers out of the vehicles if they can't be proven to be
"work" vehicles. We already have a "gas guzzler" tax on certain
cars--but it's essentially a one time tax at purchase. Extend that to be
added to the annual registration fees, and I'm certain people are smart
enough to adapt their wants to more closely match their needs. How long
do you think the kid next door w/ that 6-8 mpg "monster truck" is going
to keep that thing if, in addition to costing him $150 to fill it, he
ALSO has to pay, let's say for example, $2500/yr additional on his
registration? How long do you think Mrs. Soccer Mom's gonna think she
just HAS to have that 8 mpg Excursion to haul a couple of brats three
blocks to the soccer field?

We're no longer in a "free for all" economy WRT to fuel, nor can we
continue to base our entire economy on cheap oil that no longer exists.
Some of the ideas I've suggested ARE draconian, as well as being full of
potential holes and loopholes. And I HATE to think we'd actually have to
have the government institute such things, but until we first CUT our
consumption, we're sunk. We can't grow corn or make batteries for
hybrids fast enough to offset the increases in demand. Our $3 calculator
should give us some ideas of the economies (or costs) of scale involved.

Who's got some better ideas?

Rick
 
Regarding mandates vs market forces causing the transition to flex-
fuel cars:

I am all for market solutions where they exist, but there are cases in
which the market gets trapped into a sub-optimumal solution. It is
like a liquid cooled below its normal freezing point -- supercooled.
In these cases it takes an external event to help the liquid find its
lowest free energy state, or to help the market find the best
solution.

When oil gets to $500 per barrel and gasoline to $15 per gallon, the
market might yield to the pressure, but it will be less costly if we
convert to biofuels now, with the aid of legislation if necessary.
The reasons go beyond personal economy: safety, the environment, and
national security.

Already started, and it is not going to taqke $15 gasoline.
I just picked one, there are plenty more, and the opportunity is vast.

http://www.readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=34559
Requiring flex-fuel cars will cost the makers of automobiles less than
what we pay OPEC for oil in one week.

Not a relevant statement, even if true, and certainly not documented.
Once the cost of that requirement is spent how many miles will it
carry the customers in that week.

Free market will get the job done in a reasonable time. "Planned"
economies have always failed.
 
Just as a data point, I started routinely using E15 about a month ago,
and noticed a consistant 20% *increase* in mileage.

Unless something else, like the weather changed, are you sure you're
not making a math error?
 
.....

Already started, and it is not going to take $15 gasoline.
I just picked one, there are plenty more, and the opportunity is vast.

http://www.readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=34559


Free market will get the job done in a reasonable time. "Planned"
economies have always failed.
Frank, the article you quote does not deal with E85 but with small
gasoline cars. The market is working fine in this area. But with E85
there is a chicken and egg problem: Why buy a flex-fuel car when so
little E85 is for sale. And why should a gas station install an E85
pump when there are so few flex-fuel cars around. This is the kind of
thing that needs a little "planned economy," much as that kind of
thing is not generally the best solution.

I agree than planned economies do not work well as a rule. But there
are exceptions. There are "planned economy" moves that have worked
well. That is why we all drive on the right. That is why we all have
seat belts. and air bags.

If we get no such law (mandating flex-fuel), I hope you are right!

Ben
 
Frank, the article you quote does not deal with E85 but with small
gasoline cars. The market is working fine in this area. But with E85
there is a chicken and egg problem: Why buy a flex-fuel car when so
little E85 is for sale. And why should a gas station install an E85
pump when there are so few flex-fuel cars around. This is the kind of
thing that needs a little "planned economy," much as that kind of
thing is not generally the best solution.

I agree than planned economies do not work well as a rule. But there
are exceptions. There are "planned economy" moves that have worked
well. That is why we all drive on the right. That is why we all have
seat belts. and air bags.

If we get no such law (mandating flex-fuel), I hope you are right!

Ben
It's a "planned economy" right now as far as ethanol goes.
Ethanol should be sidelined, 100%, until a viable cellulose conversion
technology is developed.
Using food for fuel production is reprehensible and will cause the USA
more grief, internationally, than their appetite for oil has in the
past.
The old story that "brewers mash" has all the nutrients left and can
be used as livestock feed doesn't cut it. The poor of the world run on
corn, not beef.And EWVERYTHING in North America, and worldwide, will
become more expensive as the price of corn and other food-grains go
up. North America is as much a "corn economy" right now as it is an
"oil economy" - and corn is extremely closely linked to oil -
Phosphate fertilizers require petroleum products for production, and
corn requires phosphates and nitrogen in huge quantities.
 
L. Ross Raszewski said:
Just as a data point, I started routinely using E15 about a month ago,
and noticed a consistant 20% *increase* in mileage.

Hi,

What blend were you using before? I'm pretty sure yours is the FIRST
report I've seen of BETTER mileage w/ more ethanol. Can you show us some
numbers, please?

Thanks!

Rick
 
clare said:
It's a "planned economy" right now as far as ethanol goes.
Ethanol should be sidelined, 100%, until a viable cellulose conversion
technology is developed.
Using food for fuel production is reprehensible and will cause the USA
more grief, internationally, than their appetite for oil has in the
past.
The old story that "brewers mash" has all the nutrients left and can
be used as livestock feed doesn't cut it. The poor of the world run on
corn, not beef.And EWVERYTHING in North America, and worldwide, will
become more expensive as the price of corn and other food-grains go
up. North America is as much a "corn economy" right now as it is an
"oil economy" - and corn is extremely closely linked to oil -
Phosphate fertilizers require petroleum products for production, and
corn requires phosphates and nitrogen in huge quantities.

this is a coupla years old, but still has a lot of good points;
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/apr2006/bw20060427_493909.htm?campaign_id=topStories_ssi_5

Carl
 
Hi,

What blend were you using before? I'm pretty sure yours is the FIRST
report I've seen of BETTER mileage w/ more ethanol. Can you show us some
numbers, please?

Thanks!

Rick

I don't know what exactly changed, but I was getting pretty dire
mileage, around 20 mpg, and when I started consistently going to the
E15 station, it rose up to about what I'd come to expect from a sube
wagon, around 24-25.

I don't really know a whole lot about how gasoline works, but ethanol
increases octane, doesn't it? I know that doesn't translate into
higher mileage, but it could have other beneficial effects on the
engine.
 
Using food for fuel production is reprehensible and will cause the USA
more grief, internationally, than their appetite for oil has in the
past.

You got that right...

I wish more of my fellow Americans understood that putting FOOD in the
gas tank is stupid.

The Brazilians do it very well with waste sugar cane.
 
Frank, the article you quote does not deal with E85 but with small
gasoline cars.

Please read your contention again, as stated just above. It has to
do with the supply, demand and price of gasoline and what will impact
it. Your contention is that:

"Might yield" My contention is that it is already yielding to the
pressure, and oil and gasoline will not get anywhere near that price
before a major and appropriate philosophical change takes place. With
no government interference.
The market is working fine in this area. But with E85
there is a chicken and egg problem: Why buy a flex-fuel car when so
little E85 is for sale. And why should a gas station install an E85
pump when there are so few flex-fuel cars around. This is the kind of
thing that needs a little "planned economy," much as that kind of
thing is not generally the best solution.

I agree than planned economies do not work well as a rule. But there
are exceptions. There are "planned economy" moves that have worked
well.
That is why we all drive on the right.

Absolutley nothing to do with the economy.
That is why we all have
seat belts. and air bags.

Absolutley nothing to do with the economy
If we get no such law (mandating flex-fuel), I hope you are right!

I'm not concerned.

Frank
 
this is a coupla years old, but still has a lot of good points;
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/apr2006/bw20060427_493909.h...

Carl

The article's main points against ethanol are (1) it causes smog, (2)
it costs more energy to make it than you get back, and (3) E85 is very
inefficient. I believe all three are wrong. Ethanol when burned
causes no particulates in the air, no sulfur, and little nitrogen
oxides; when spilled it is dispersed by water and consumed by
bacteria. If the Exxon Valdez had spilled ethanol instead of
petroleum, the effect on the environment would have gone to zero in a
few months, instead of still being with us after decades.

The Pimental paper (not "numerous studies") that claims that there is
an energy loss in the production of ethanol was debunked as soon as it
was published. A study by Prof. Bruce Dale (Chem. Engr, Mich. State
Univ.) finds that "more than twenty gallons" of ethanol can be
produced for every gallon of gasoline or diesel fuel expended in the
process. In fact, there is a real energy deficit in the production of,
not ethanol, but gasoline!

Efficiency? Today I filled the tank of my 1999 OB, unmodified, with
what I calculate as E41, obtained by mixing at the pumps E85 and E10
plus what residual E0 I had in there. I'll report on the mileage in a
few days. The prices were E10, $3.87/gal; E85, $2.97/gal. (So far,
the car runs fine and no CE light.)

Ben
 
Danger will robinson!

There's a reason that Gas-ethanol blends come in 85% gasoline or 85%
ethanol.

Basically, you can disolve about 20% gas in ethanol, or you can
dissolve about 20% ethanol in gas.

Once you move much outside those ranges, the gas and ethanol won't
form a solution. THe two will separate, and that could cause
disasterous consequences for your fuel lines (I'm not sure exactly
what happens, but having two fuels in your tank at the same time with
very different properties can't be good.


Well, if so, what happens to the poor shmuck with his factory flex-
fuel vehicle who does one fillup with 'gas' or 'gasohol (10%eth)' and
another with 'E85'?

Is there an owners-manual warning about making sure the tank is fairly
empty before filling up with a radically different blend?

Sounds like a flex-fuel vehicle must be made to run equally well on
straight gas, or staright eth, or anywhere in between.


Dave
 
Danger will robinson!

There's a reason that Gas-ethanol blends come in 85% gasoline or 85%
ethanol.

Basically, you can disolve about 20% gas in ethanol, or you can
dissolve about 20% ethanol in gas.

Once you move much outside those ranges, the gas and ethanol won't
form a solution.  THe two will separate, and that could cause
disasterous consequences for your fuel lines (I'm not sure exactly
what happens, but having two fuels in your tank at the same time with
very different properties can't be good.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is not true. (see www.freepatentsonline.com/4297172.html)

Ethanol and gasoline are completely miscible (do not separate into
distinct liquid phases) in any proportion. It is water that separates
from gasoline to create problems, but the problems are not disatrous
and are easily fixed with a can of Drygas, which uses alcohol to
combine with the water and make it dissolve into the gasoline.
 
Well, if so, what happens to the poor shmuck with his factory flex-
fuel vehicle who does one fillup with 'gas' or 'gasohol (10%eth)' and
another with 'E85'?

Is there an owners-manual warning about making sure the tank is fairly
empty before filling up with a radically different blend?

Sounds like a flex-fuel vehicle must be made to run equally well on
straight gas, or staright eth, or anywhere in between.


Dave
This is NOT true.
The problem of "phase separation" has to do with WATER in the fuel.
Ethanol is hygroscopic - it attracts water and absorbs it. The amount
of water it can hold varies with temperature, so on a cool day the
water and ethanol can suddenly "drop out" of the mix - all at once.
THIS is where the danger comes in using ethanol "enhanced" fuel in
planes, boats, and snowmobiles. (as well as in cars - to a lesser
extent as you are usually not out of reach of help when it happens on
the road.
 
This is not true. (see www.freepatentsonline.com/4297172.html)

Ethanol and gasoline are completely miscible (do not separate into
distinct liquid phases) in any proportion. It is water that separates
from gasoline to create problems, but the problems are not disatrous
and are easily fixed with a can of Drygas, which uses alcohol to
combine with the water and make it dissolve into the gasoline.


Drygas has little effect on ethanol blends, except to make the
"gasahol" hold a bit more water before it, and the ehanol, separate
out.

Not disaterous on the road close to civilization, but can be DEADLY in
a plane, or snowmobile or boat "off the beaten path"
 
Drygas has little effect on ethanol blends, except to make the
"gasahol" hold a bit more water before it, and the ethanol, separate
out.


"except to make the 'gasahol' hold a bit more water"

That is the whole point of Drygas, and that is what makes the water go
out the exhaust pipe. So, "little effect" except for getting rid of
the water.

Ben
 

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