E85 -- experience

[clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada]

Er... 49 , my butt! <G>

Many northeastern US states have true California emmisions standards
these days.

There is no more "49 state" and "Cali" calibration any more. ANY new
car sold in the USA has to meet the same standards no matter which
state it is sold in.
No "High Altitude" calibration any more either.
OBD2 looks after all of that.

 

[Uncle Ben]

There is no more "49 state" and "Cali" calibration any more. ANY new
car sold in the USA has to meet the same standards no matter which
state it is sold in.
No "High Altitude" calibration any more either.
OBD2 looks after all of that.
- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

According to the NY DMV at

http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/vehsafe.htm

the emissions standard in NY outside of the NYC metro area are (1) all
the emission control equjipment installed and operating and (2) no MIL
light. In the metro area there is an additional requirement for a
sniffer test on the exhaust.

My car is in the Albany area, and it meets the requirements running
E29 before any conversion. I expect it to pass running E85 after the
conversion.

Ben

 

[-rick-]

... That is supposed to be routine. I shouldn't have to
disconnect the battery every time.

There should be a reset button in the glove box...

 

[Uncle Ben]

There should be a reset button in the glove box...

I have more information now about the reset for a different fuel:

The converter I bought (Full Flex from "change2e85.com") has a memory
for MAPpings. The recommendation is that after conversion, you should
first run a tankful of E50 (roughly half and half of E10 and E85 mixed
at the pumps). This gives the converter an easier task finding the
right mapping for its first taste of ethanol. It remembers that
setting, so that when you try E85 it has less distance (so to speak)
to go to find the new right setting. It's like a ladder with a bottom
rung, and top rung, and one in the middle.

Then you are ready for anything! No battery disconnects required.

In my case, I started before conversion running E29. Customer service
told me that I could then go straight to E85 without a problem.

Ben

PS: Thanks for the info Rick. I don't have such a button. Maybe that
is for OEM FFVs only.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Here is the address of a thread about a WRX owner who converted his
car to E85 by changing to larger fuel injectors -- nothing else

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341

He has two years of experience with it and loves it.

Ben

Today the conversion to FFV was finished. It was not as easy as
expected:

The converter I bought (Full Flex from "change2e85.com") consists
merely of a control box with a pair of wires for each cylinder, 4 in
my case. The connectors at the end of the wires are for the fuel
injectors, one male, one female. You remove the original connector
from the injector, replace it with one of the pair, and connect the
other wire to the original connector. This puts the control box in
series with your fuel management system for each cylinder.

There is a Youtube video that shows two boys, 12 and 9, making this
conversion under adult supervision in about 10 minutes. But the car
was not a Subaru.

Unfortunately my 1999 OB 2.5L engine has its fuel injectors way down
beneath some other parts, and it was with difficulty that I was able
to remove the original connectors. But I did, and then I discovered
that Subaru has used two slightly different versions of its injector
connectors, and mine was not like the ones supplied with the kit. The
difference is a 1/8-inch shift in the position of guide fins on the
injector that are supposed to slide into slots on the connector.

Customer service acknowledged that problem and suggested removing the
fins with a Dremel tool -- very simple, very easy. Except that one
needs to remove the injectors to do that. My Chilton manual said that
to remove the injectors one had to disconnect and reposition several
items, including the power steering pump. Ouch!

Not being an experienced mechanic, I took the car to my trusted
professional. He quoted $80 to remove and reinstall the injectors.
Should take an hour of his time. I modified the injectors on the spot
with my Dremel tool with a cutter bit.

Turned out to be two hours, because after reinstalling the injectors
(without removing anything but the air cleaner), one of the injectors
was leaking. Sanding down a bit of corrosion and replacing an O-ring
solved that problem after several attempts, but I realized that by
myself I could not even have checked for that.

Moral: If your car is old, expect the unexpected.

Anyway it is done, the car runs smoothly with the converter in place
still running E29, and I am happy. When I refill my tank, it will be
with E85, and I will report.

Ben

 

[Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)]

Moral: If your car is old, expect the unexpected.

I had the same engine in a 2001 OBW. Without a few gems of
information, even the plugs were a pain. <G>

I admire your drive and appreciate the posts.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Note that the title of the article is a question, not a claim. The
article doesn't quote any actual experience with E85, just theoretical
predictions.  Let's look at some real data:

Fuel efficiency:  Not a 40% reduction;  a 5% reduction, more or less
according to how one drives.  And that is in miles/gallon, not miles/
dollar, which increases. In my case using E30, the drop was from 25 to
24 mpg, which is subject to refinement as I get more experience.
Today I install my kit and can burn E85.  Will report.

Price:--Not more than gasoline;  25% less than gasoline at my station
in NY.  In CO, some stations discount much more  And that is with the
current scarce production of ethanol.  (In Brazil they make ethanol
for 83 cents per gallon.)

Smog:-- Not a rise in organic emissions;  an actual reduction in
organic emmissions by 40% or more. In FFVs or conversions with good
kits, one approaches stochiometric combustion. And there are hardly
any particulates in the exhaust, unlike gasoline. (Particulates form
nucleation points for smog creation.)

And then there are the advantages.  No billions of dollars sent to
OPEC!

Thanks, Frank, for providing a chance to discuss these questions.

Ben- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In his May 14th Frank reply to me, he cited an article that mentioned
possible smog problems with ethanol. I have located the source of
this concern in an article by one Mark Z. Jacobson, "Environmental
Science and Technology", April 18, 2007, which does indeed project
smog problems in 2020 in the Los Angeles are when it is supposed that
all vehicles burn E85. (Versus reduction in smog in Atlanta.) The
cause of increased smog, according to the computer simulation, was a
decrease -- that's right, a decrease -- in NOx tailpipe emissions; it
seems that when smog is high, NOx tends to break up ozone molecules,
if I understand correctly, and thus reduce smog to a lower equilibrium
level. A "hair-of-the-dog" cure.

A critique of Jacobson's study --

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/objects/documents/1071/reapresponse_jacobsone85.pdf
--

points out that Jacobson assumed as input to his 2007 study that the
vehicles in 2020 would have the same properties as those of US
vehicles from 1991. These 1991 vehicles were not flex-fuel vehicles;
there weren't any in those days.

There are other criticsms also. If you are worried about ethanol
smog, read the article.

Ben

 

[Rick Courtright]

The cause of increased smog, according to the computer simulation, was a
decrease -- that's right, a decrease -- in NOx tailpipe emissions; it
seems that when smog is high, NOx tends to break up ozone molecules,
if I understand correctly, and thus reduce smog to a lower equilibrium
level. A "hair-of-the-dog" cure.

Hi,

Both my high school chem and physics classes were right after lunch. So
I managed a fair amount of "nap time" in there.

However, I did stay awake long enough to learn this little thing that
seems to be forgotten in too many of these discussions, and certainly in
legislative chambers, something called The Law of Conservation of
Matter. As I recall, it states "Matter is neither created nor destroyed,
it simply changes form."

Now, much to the dismay of my father the physicist, I went no further in
either of these two disciplines, so maybe I missed something truly
important, but until someone educates me better, I'm going w/ the
question my high school teacher posed:

"You add one pound of liquid fuel to 15 pounds of air. Burn them. How
much matter, in pounds comes out of the tailpipe?"

Back in the days before calculators, 1 + 15 was 16. No matter how we
sing and dance around the issue, we can't change that. All we can hope
to do is change the form of that 16 lbs of "stuff" into more manageable,
or less harmful, new forms of "stuff." In other words, we change "brown"
smog into "green" smog. It's still smog...

Rick

 

[dnoyeB]

It will, learn eventually. But , if you expect HIGHER octane, it is
probably better to force the ECU back to the factory map. Then it starts
from max advance and retards on knock detection. If you don't do that,
and the system has already retarded the timing, it may take a very long
time to advance it, if ever.

I hope I have that right. Anyway, you should really consider resetting
the ECU with a scanner or by battery disconnect/w'ever. AND use multiple
tankfuls for any mileage calculations.


Carl

I doubt unplugging the battery would reset an ECU. Normally data like
this once calculated is stored in non-volatile memory and is not erased
from battery disconnect. Especially engine info as you can get battery
disconnect like behavior during cold crank.


CL

 

[dnoyeB]

Thanks, Tony and Carl, for the info on MAPs and ECUs and changing
fuels. I had never known about these things before.

But what I am doing (when my kit comes) is to convert my car to an
FFV. So the design goal is to enable me to change fuels drastically
and often. On the road I might be running E85, fuel getting low, and
no E85 station within 100 miles. I would then switch to E0, or pure
gasoline. That is supposed to be routine. I shouldn't have to
disconnect the battery every time.

I remember reading that the FFVs detect the concentration of ethanol
and adjust quickly to it. I don't know what sensor detects the
change, but it must be there somewhere.

In my recent experiments before installing the kit, if there were
drastic errors in timing and mixtures, I should have experienced poor
acceleration, stumbling, or even stalling, not to mention poor
mileage. In fact, that did not happen. I can't explain it, but
things went very smoothly, and the cars pep and smooth running was
great.

Cars are getting too complicated for us amateurs!

Ben

I doubt they detect Ethanol at all. More likely they monitor the engines
performance and adjust fuel/oxygen ratio to keep it within some
performance parameters. I bet they can tell the octane by engine output
and temperature, etc. Of course, this means the ECU designer must have
some logic that says E85 is not the engine malfunctioning...

CL

 

[Uncle Ben]

Hi,

Both my high school chem and physics classes were right after lunch. So
I managed a fair amount of "nap time" in there.

However, I did stay awake long enough to learn this little thing that
seems to be forgotten in too many of these discussions, and certainly in
legislative chambers, something called The Law of Conservation of
Matter. As I recall, it states "Matter is neither created nor destroyed,
it simply changes form."

Now, much to the dismay of my father the physicist, I went no further in
either of these two disciplines, so maybe I missed something truly
important, but until someone educates me better, I'm going w/ the
question my high school teacher posed:

"You add one pound of liquid fuel to 15 pounds of air. Burn them. How
much matter, in pounds comes out of the tailpipe?"

Back in the days before calculators, 1 + 15 was 16. No matter how we
sing and dance around the issue, we can't change that. All we can hope
to do is change the form of that 16 lbs of "stuff" into more manageable,
or less harmful, new forms of "stuff." In other words, we change "brown"
smog into "green" smog. It's still smog...

Rick

As usually defined, "smog" is smoke + fog. Ain't much smoke from
burning alcohol in the right mixture. Your 15 pounds of air is about
12 pounds of nitrogen, most of which comes out just as it went in -- a
little warmer. If that's "green" smog, bring it on.

Ben

Ben

 

[clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada]

I doubt they detect Ethanol at all. More likely they monitor the engines
performance and adjust fuel/oxygen ratio to keep it within some
performance parameters. I bet they can tell the octane by engine output
and temperature, etc. Of course, this means the ECU designer must have
some logic that says E85 is not the engine malfunctioning...

CL

Actually, some vehicles DO have a fuel analyzer on board. Generally
some sort of optical refractometer or transmittance device that can
determine the composition of the fuel to within 13% or something like
that. GM early flex fuel vehicles used this.

The new flex-fuel Impalla calculates the fuel composition every time
the fuel cap is removed by running an algarithm on the O2 sensor data.