Diesel Subaru at 200 hp - New version

[Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)]

I had a chance to ride in, then drive a VW Jetta deisel this week from
Pittsburgh to College Station. The damn thing get 55 mpg on hilly state
roads, and is a blast to drive. 600 miles on a tank of deisel? I'm
definitely considering a deisel.

What year?

A.) Edmunds doesn't list a Jetta diesel for 2008

B.) Diesel fuel is 31% more costly in my state than regular gas ($3.25
vs. $4.25) Therefore, based on fuel cost per mile, you're getting a
36 MPG Highway gasoline car, and that doesn't include the higher
purchase cost of the diesel engine.

The bottom line, just like hybrids, is to do ALL the math. Doing only
the MPG math is pointless.

Maybe it'll be advantageous to you, but maybe it really won't.

 

[DK]

The bottom line, just like hybrids, is to do ALL the math. Doing only
the MPG math is pointless.

Speaking of hybrids. Now that they've been around for
a while, is there any preliminary data that tell what
the real life battery longevity might be?

DK

 

[Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)]

Speaking of hybrids. Now that they've been around for
a while, is there any preliminary data that tell what
the real life battery longevity might be?

Good question. I haven't seen anything.

I know someone with a 1st generation Prius that's still going very
strong, and I still see some original Insights on the road.

 

[John O]

What year?

Hmm, maybe 06 or 07. I don't know.

A.) Edmunds doesn't list a Jetta diesel for 2008

B.) Diesel fuel is 31% more costly in my state than regular gas ($3.25
vs. $4.25) Therefore, based on fuel cost per mile, you're getting a
36 MPG Highway gasoline car, and that doesn't include the higher
purchase cost of the diesel engine.

The bottom line, just like hybrids, is to do ALL the math. Doing only
the MPG math is pointless.

Maybe it'll be advantageous to you, but maybe it really won't.

Good point, but still, 36 mpg is good for a car that size. It's not at all
like a little 2.2l four cyl econobox optimized for economy...this is a nice
car with a *lot* of power and quickness.

-John O

 

[JD]

Hmm, maybe 06 or 07. I don't know.


Good point, but still, 36 mpg is good for a car that size. It's not at all
like a little 2.2l four cyl econobox optimized for economy...this is a
nice car with a *lot* of power and quickness.

-John O

That is one of the beauties of diesel; they are generally not high
horsepower (because they rev so low), but they have a lot of torque for
their size.

 

[Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)]

Good point, but still, 36 mpg is good for a car that size. It's not at all
like a little 2.2l four cyl econobox optimized for economy...this is a nice
car with a *lot* of power and quickness.

No doubt about that at all, I've driven one myself.

Are you SURE it gets 55 MPG? <G>

The last year Edmunds lists a TDI Jetta, 2006, the manual shift
version is rated for 41 MPG, the automatic for 42, on the highway.

That's 28/29 when price adjusted to gas in my area, but the gas V6
version claims 30 MPG with an automatic transmission.

I'm not saying there aren't advantages to diesels, but...

 

[Rick Courtright]

the diesels tested are not the same as the clean-running ones we're about to get in the
US.

Hi,

In talking w/ a Toyota salesman even before I read that particular
article (late '06?), I got the impression the "clean running" models ARE
the models that have been available in Europe for some time. His take on
the diesel situation was that the US needed to complete the switch to
"cleaner" diesel fuel (supposedly late '07--dunno if it's actually
complete thoughout the country) before Toyota would consider bringing
any of 'em in here. According to him, the older "dirty" fuel would cause
endless problems w/ the "new" engines. OTOH, my next door neighbor, a
truck driver, and the guys on a Mercedes group I was reading when trying
to learn about some of their diesels, both claim some of the new engines
have their problems w/ the "clean" fuel. I dunno which stories to
believe, which to discount...

If it's apples to oranges, I think the problem probably goes deeper than
simply whether the engines are identical on either side of the pond.

Rick

 

[suburboturbo]

Hi,

In talking w/ a Toyota salesman even before I read that particular
article (late '06?), I got the impression the "clean running" models ARE
the models that have been available in Europe for some time. His take on
the diesel situation was that the US needed to complete the switch to
"cleaner" diesel fuel (supposedly late '07--dunno if it's actually
complete thoughout the country) before Toyota would consider bringing
any of 'em in here. According to him, the older "dirty" fuel would cause
endless problems w/ the "new" engines. OTOH, my next door neighbor, a
truck driver, and the guys on a Mercedes group I was reading when trying
to learn about some of their diesels, both claim some of the new engines
have their problems w/ the "clean" fuel. I dunno which stories to
believe, which to discount...

If it's apples to oranges, I think the problem probably goes deeper than
simply whether the engines are identical on either side of the pond.

Rick

You can count on anything going on sale here being designed for ultra
low sulfur diesel. Don't think that's what's now available at every
pump, but we've been running a fleet of 330+ buses on it for a couple
of years. One tricky sidebar: new nanotube filter technology (like
Audi uses in its race engines) blows a stream of superheated (1200+
degree) exhaust through the tubes to clear them. Works okay at the
track or on a bus exhaust stack located 8' off the ground, but how do
you vent that at ground level on the street? Liability risks aside,
could be useful to discourage tailgaters.

 

[Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)]

You can count on anything going on sale here being designed for ultra
low sulfur diesel. Don't think that's what's now available at every
pump, but we've been running a fleet of 330+ buses on it for a couple
of years.

Interesting sidebar to low-sulfur fuel...

I bicycle a lot. Most stations in my area now advertise low-sulfur
fuel. As I ride in traffic, I notice a definite improvement in diesel
cleanliness. A really BIG improvement! I can also pick out
Bio-diesel. <G>

I've also noticed that low sulfur kerosene burns far cleaner in my
wood shop heater. My wife is very sensitive to smell, and even she
comments how much cleaner the heater seems to be running, and she
doesn't know different fuel is available.

I really wish I could have purchased a small turbo-diesel (like Toyota
offers the rest of the world) in my '05 Tacoma 4x4, as I'd like trade
the lugging power for the "car-like" V6 performance I have to pay for
in order to have decent towing power. After all, I don't race my
Tacoma, as it's a truck...

 

[Bob H]

Hi,

In talking w/ a Toyota salesman even before I read that particular
article (late '06?), I got the impression the "clean running" models ARE
the models that have been available in Europe for some time. His take on
the diesel situation was that the US needed to complete the switch to
"cleaner" diesel fuel (supposedly late '07--dunno if it's actually
complete thoughout the country) before Toyota would consider bringing
any of 'em in here. According to him, the older "dirty" fuel would cause
endless problems w/ the "new" engines. OTOH, my next door neighbor, a
truck driver, and the guys on a Mercedes group I was reading when trying
to learn about some of their diesels, both claim some of the new engines
have their problems w/ the "clean" fuel. I dunno which stories to
believe, which to discount...

If it's apples to oranges, I think the problem probably goes deeper than
simply whether the engines are identical on either side of the pond.

Rick

Europe's standards from Dieselnet.com:

Effective 1994.10, a maximum sulfur limit of 0.2% (wt.) was introduced for
all gas oils, including diesel fuel. The minimum cetane number was 49.
1996.10: A maximum sulfur limit of 0.05% (wt.) = 500 ppm for diesel fuel.
2000.01: A maximum sulfur limit of 350 ppm and cetane number of 51 for
diesel fuel.
2005.01: A maximum sulfur limit of 50 ppm for diesel fuel. "Sulfur-free" 10
ppm sulfur diesel fuel must be available for highway vehicles.
2009.01: A maximum sulfur limit of 10 ppm ("sulfur-free") for diesel fuel
for highway and nonroad vehicles.

And the corresponding US standards:

Highway Diesel Fuel
500 ppm: Sulfur limit of 500 ppm = 0.05% (wt.) became effective in October
1993. This fuel, commonly referred to as the low sulfur diesel fuel, was
introduced to facilitate sulfate particulate emission reductions, which were
necessary for meeting the 1994 emission standards for heavy-duty highway
engines.
15 ppm: Diesel fuel of maximum sulfur level of 15 ppm will be available for
highway use beginning in June 2006. This fuel, referred to as the ultra low
sulfur diesel (ULSD), was legislated by the EPA to enable catalyst-based
emission control devices, such as diesel particulate filters and NOx
adsorbers, which will be necessary for meeting the 2007-2010 emission
standards for heavy-duty engines, as well as the Tier 2 light-duty
standards.
Nonroad Diesel Fuels
500 ppm: Sulfur limit of 500 ppm becomes effective in June 2007 for nonroad,
locomotive and marine fuels.
15 ppm: Sulfur limit of 15 ppm (ULSD) becomes effective in June 2010 for
nonroad fuel, and in June 2012 for locomotive and marine fuels. The ULSD has
been legislated for nonroad engines to enable advanced emission control
systems for meeting the Tier 4 nonroad emission standards

 

[John O]

Are you SURE it gets 55 MPG? <G>

Well, I wouldn't bet my life on it. But, the guy gets 600+ miles per tank in
combined driving, has had the car for about a year, and says that the
dashboard mpg display is accurate.

-John O

 

[Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)]

Well, I wouldn't bet my life on it. But, the guy gets 600+ miles per tank

FWIW, Volkswagen rates the car for 600 miles per tank @ 40 MPG.

 

[John O]

"Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)"

FWIW, Volkswagen rates the car for 600 miles per tank @ 40 MPG.

In that case his dashboard mpg display is off by more than 15. I'll try to
get a couple details from him.

-John O

 

[Stewart]

"Valued Corporate #120,345 Employee (B A R R Y)"


In that case his dashboard mpg display is off by more than 15. I'll try to
get a couple details from him.

-John O

We usually get well in excess of 50mpg day-to-day from our VW Touran (UK model).
On a recent long trip we got an average of 46mpg @ 70mph+, fully laden with a
large roof box on. Shame my Forester doesn't do this well.

 

[EdV]

Diesel fuel, in general, is simpler to refine from petroleum compared
to gasoline. Higher prices can be attributed to higher taxes imposed
on diesel fuel. Even if diesel fuel undergo additional filtration to
remove the pollutants, the cost to manufacture is lower. Well taxes
and demand for heating oil, especially in winter months, contribute to
higher price of diesel. This is for diesel fuel derived from
petroleum, bio diesel or diesel fuel derived from vegetable or animal
oil is a very different story. Rudolph diesel originally designed his
engine using vegetable oil, if IIRC he used peanut oil.