camry or subaru?

[Rick Courtright]

Plus the issue about being trapped in the car and injured by the
batteries - well, present cars could potentially trap you and injure you
with gas or the acid from the lead/acid battery.

True, but we've pretty much "accepted" certain risks with existing
automotive technology. OTOH, with personal injury and product liability
law being what they are in the US, I can see a flock of lawyers sitting
like buzzards waiting for their first "carcass" to try to make a buck on
a "new" technology!

And being in California, I can only imagine the traffic jam as who knows
how many agencies step on each other's toes trying to figure what to do
when the battery leaks something on the ground...

Rick

 

[Bonehenge]

[...clip...]

*
My two cents: Take a look at the '05 Toyota Prius.

GREAT CAR, my in-laws have one.

Can you actually get one for a reasonable price, in a reasonable
amount of time? The in-laws waited many months.

Barry

 

[Rick Courtright]

Can you actually get one for a reasonable price, in a reasonable
amount of time? The in-laws waited many months.

Here in SoCal the waiting lists are getting longer and the prices are
going up... where are the in-laws?

Rick

 

[Bonehenge]

Here in SoCal the waiting lists are getting longer and the prices are
going up... where are the in-laws?

Connecticut

 

[geoff_m]

There is NO comparsion between Subaru and Toyota when it comes to
reliability, costs and long term investment.
In the USA there are over 400 Toyotas for EACH,EVERY subaru sold PERIOD.
Toyota has more dealerships, more approved service outlets, parts available
damn near everywhere.
Toyota uses the same parts in a lot of their differant models.
Toyota has been in business longer than Subaru
Toyota has a MUCH HIGHER customer satisfaction ratio than Subaru.
The Toyota Camry has a "Rep" of being "Bullet-proof", possibly a tad
"boring" but HIGHLY reliable.
The Subaru IS faster than the Camry....
Hope this helps in your choice of a long term automotive investment, my
money is on the Toyota.

The Camry has a (well deserved) reputation as a "sales reps" car.
Reliable, economical - just the thing you want for a rep. When they do
break, the labour for fixing the (4cyl) Camrys is a lot less than the
subie. Access to the engine is a lot easier - price up doing a clutch
for example. The 4wd of the subie adds greatly to the cost and
complexity.
OTOH, the Subies generally handle better, and 4wd is nice to have when
you need it.
Around here, the Subies are the number 1 most stolen car, especially
the WRX and turbo wagons. Might be worth checking the insurance costs
on each.
The Subie will be a lot more fun, but the Camry is the accountant's
choice.

 

[amanda992004]

The Subie will be a lot more fun, but the Camry is the accountant's

choice.

My ex-bf has a Subaru legacy (4WD; performance car, he said). That's
when I realized that I would love such a car but I can't afford it and
also in this city, getting parts would be a pain. So sadly for me,
Camry is the choice.

 

[Earle Jones]

The Subie will be a lot more fun, but the Camry is the accountant's
choice.

My ex-bf has a Subaru legacy (4WD; performance car, he said). That's
when I realized that I would love such a car but I can't afford it and
also in this city, getting parts would be a pain. So sadly for me,
Camry is the choice.[/QUOTE]

*
Prius is a better choice than either Camry or Subaru.

Take a look before you decide.

Here is a note I posted in the Yahoo Prius-2G mailing list:

***
I took delivery of my '05 Prius in January. Since then, I have
filled the tank 20 times and have covered 7,090.8 miles, using
145.637 gallons of gas.

Average MPG = 48.7 (I would estimate about 60 % highway and 40%
city driving.) Displayed MPG average = 49.2 MPG or a difference of
about one percent.

Total cost of fuel = $340.41 or an average of $2.33 per gallon.
Lowest fuel cost = $1.799 (in January); Highest fuel cost = $2.999
in May.

The best mileage recorded (on one tank of gas) was 58.9 MPG and the
lowest was 43.1 MPG.

About 2,000 of these miles were on a 12-day trip from home (San
Francisco peninsula) to the Grand Canyon that included stops at
Sequoia National Park (above 7,000 feet) and places like Monitor
Pass and Carson Pass at about 8,000 feet.

I generally run about 42/40 psi in the tires.

I am extremely happy with everything about this car. I have had no
problems at all. I have personally talked up its advantages to many
friends and I suspect I have already been responsible for two or
three sales.

I would guess that my experience, in both mileage/cost and in
performance/happiness is about average for Prius owners.
***

earle
*

 

[jabario]

Big deal!! VW diesels get 45mpg with auto trans and use proven
reliable technology. No wimpy battery cars!!!!!! Hybrids are the only
vehicles dweebier than saturns

My ex-bf has a Subaru legacy (4WD; performance car, he said). That's
when I realized that I would love such a car but I can't afford it and
also in this city, getting parts would be a pain. So sadly for me,
Camry is the choice.

*
Prius is a better choice than either Camry or Subaru.

Take a look before you decide.

Here is a note I posted in the Yahoo Prius-2G mailing list:

***
I took delivery of my '05 Prius in January. Since then, I have
filled the tank 20 times and have covered 7,090.8 miles, using
145.637 gallons of gas.

Average MPG = 48.7 (I would estimate about 60 % highway and 40%
city driving.) Displayed MPG average = 49.2 MPG or a difference of
about one percent.

Total cost of fuel = $340.41 or an average of $2.33 per gallon.
Lowest fuel cost = $1.799 (in January); Highest fuel cost = $2.999
in May.

The best mileage recorded (on one tank of gas) was 58.9 MPG and the
lowest was 43.1 MPG.

About 2,000 of these miles were on a 12-day trip from home (San
Francisco peninsula) to the Grand Canyon that included stops at
Sequoia National Park (above 7,000 feet) and places like Monitor
Pass and Carson Pass at about 8,000 feet.

I generally run about 42/40 psi in the tires.

I am extremely happy with everything about this car. I have had no
problems at all. I have personally talked up its advantages to many
friends and I suspect I have already been responsible for two or
three sales.

I would guess that my experience, in both mileage/cost and in
performance/happiness is about average for Prius owners.
***

earle
*[/QUOTE]

 

[Rick Courtright]

I would guess that my experience, in both mileage/cost and in
performance/happiness is about average for Prius owners.

Hi,

Most people I've talked to who drive the Prius are, like you, rather
pleased, but you mileage figures are far higher than they've told me
about. Highest in my limited "survey" has been 44 mpg avg. But that's in
SoCal--lots of traffic surely brings down the overall numbers. Still
better than most, though.

Rick

Rick

 

[Tom Reingold]

Hi,

Most people I've talked to who drive the Prius are, like you, rather
pleased, but you mileage figures are far higher than they've told me
about. Highest in my limited "survey" has been 44 mpg avg. But that's in
SoCal--lots of traffic surely brings down the overall numbers. Still
better than most, though.

Rick

Rick

I have read that city traffic can INCREASE your efficiency, since you
don't have to idle the motor. I don't know if that's true in real life.

Big deal!! VW diesels get 45mpg with auto trans and use proven
reliable technology. No wimpy battery cars!!!!!! Hybrids are the only
vehicles dweebier than saturns

You may be right, and you may be wrong. Time will tell. Surely, there
are problems to work out, such as the expense and toxin of the battery
disposal. But some say this approach is the future. We won't know until
we're there. ;-)

Tom

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Toyota also needs to get the distribution of these things straightened
out. I have 2 relatives that have Pri-i (is that the plural?) and one of
them only got his car delivered (quite late) after seeing it at a car
show at the State fair! (he had the vin or or order nuumber or something
to compare to the window sticker!). My MIL has to finally take a
canceled check and a lawyer down to the dealership to get theirs - seems
the dealership had no record of what the salesman had done. Still, I
suppose those things could happen with any extremely popular vehicle.

I'll be more enthusiatic about hybrids when they come with an overnite
120AC top-up charger I can plug into my garage.

Oh, my MIL car got 50.5 MPG on a recnt trip to Arkansas. I do not know
hoe fast they were going and I do not know if theused the A/C. My BIL's
prius is from the first year and doesn't get as high a mileage as his
Mom's - plus, when the A/C is on - his engine is running. I got 39 MPG
once in a '78 Honda Civic driving mostly 80 MPH aross Wyoming. And
nobody gave me a tax credit to buy it.

Carl

 

[y_p_w]

True, but we've pretty much "accepted" certain risks with existing
automotive technology. OTOH, with personal injury and product
liability law being what they are in the US, I can see a flock of
lawyers sitting like buzzards waiting for their first "carcass" to
try to make a buck on a "new" technology!

And being in California, I can only imagine the traffic jam as who
knows how many agencies step on each other's toes trying to figure
what to do when the battery leaks something on the ground...

All the major hybrids use NiMH battery packs along with a single
regular lead-acid battery. NiMH batteries aren't terribly toxic -
and are certainly safer than cadnium or lead-acid. While there
are recycling facilities for NiMH batteries, I believe I can
legally dump them in the trash.

<http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/NiMH_disp.pdf>

 

[Earle Jones]

I have read that city traffic can INCREASE your efficiency, since you
don't have to idle the motor. I don't know if that's true in real life.





You may be right, and you may be wrong. Time will tell. Surely, there
are problems to work out, such as the expense and toxin of the battery
disposal. But some say this approach is the future. We won't know until
we're there. ;-)

Tom

*
And the Prius battery (the traction battery) -- in fact the entire
electric drive train including motors and generators -- is
guaranteed for 150,000 miles or ten years.

earle
*

 

[Bonehenge]

*
Prius is a better choice than either Camry or Subaru.

Take a look before you decide.

I like the Prius - a LOT! My in-laws have one, so I have plenty of
first hand experience with the car.

However, you've got to remove the blinders regarding fuel mileage!

The Prius is currently selling way over sticker in many areas, and
this is for a car that may not even arrive for 6-8 months. There are
still some issues regarding battery replacement costs down the road.

A 4 cylinder Camry can be had for less, gets mid 30's fuel mileage,
and has a higher payload and more room.

A Subaru is all-wheel drive. While the Prius is OK in snow, it ain't
no Subaru in the winter. The Subaru will also carry far more cargo
than the Prius, as well as tow ~2000 pounds.

Barry

 

[Bonehenge]

A Subaru is all-wheel drive. While the Prius is OK in snow, it ain't
no Subaru in the winter.

Sorry to reply to myself, but I forgot something.

All-wheel drive is a major opportunity for hybrid technology in the
future. All kinds of heavy equipment uses electric traction motors
instead of mechanical drive trains. AFAIK, NASA space rovers also
work this way.

Electric AWD could take advantage of an electric motor's maximum
torque @ zero RPM trait, eliminate transfer cases, drive shafts,
pumpkins, lockers, etc... by using one motor per wheel. Today's
computers could easily replace differentials.

Think of the killer ground clearance and suspension articulation
possible without U-joints, axles, and drive shafts!

Barry

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

I agree, plus the regenerative braking.
I also have thought that 4 independent hydraulic motors at each wheel
could work well. With 1 or more accumulators to recover some braking energy.
I suppose we will see some interesting designs if oil continues going
up. Seems demand is outpacing supply at present.(The Chinese recently
replaced Japan as the number 2 consumer of crude oil.)

Carl

 

[H]

The limiting factor would be the extreme unsprung weight, very important for
control at speed.

 

[Tom Reingold]

Toyota also needs to get the distribution of these things straightened
out. I have 2 relatives that have Pri-i (is that the plural?) and one of
them only got his car delivered (quite late) after seeing it at a car
show at the State fair! (he had the vin or or order nuumber or something
to compare to the window sticker!). My MIL has to finally take a
canceled check and a lawyer down to the dealership to get theirs - seems
the dealership had no record of what the salesman had done. Still, I
suppose those things could happen with any extremely popular vehicle.

I'll be more enthusiatic about hybrids when they come with an overnite
120AC top-up charger I can plug into my garage.

Oh, my MIL car got 50.5 MPG on a recnt trip to Arkansas. I do not know
hoe fast they were going and I do not know if theused the A/C. My BIL's
prius is from the first year and doesn't get as high a mileage as his
Mom's - plus, when the A/C is on - his engine is running. I got 39 MPG
once in a '78 Honda Civic driving mostly 80 MPH aross Wyoming. And
nobody gave me a tax credit to buy it.

Carl

Why do people report the mileage they get when they take a long trip?
That's the absolute best case scenario.

Tom

 

[Rick Courtright]

Why do people report the mileage they get when they take a long trip?
That's the absolute best case scenario.

Same reason they brag on their kids when they're all scrubbed up and
behaving, but don't mention how they act most of the time?

Rick

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

I would think 4 fairly small motors (hydraulic or electric or?) that
also did much of the braking (saving on brake weight) and were possibly
incorporated into wheel structure, might be close to the unsprung weight
we have nowadays. Or possibly some chain/belt drive could 'uncouple'
them from the suspension. Additionally there would be a much lower CG
I'd imagine. Though you're right, ride harshness could suffer.
I dunno - seems doable. Probably be so radically different though it
would be hard to sell. Especially since tire design/mounting might be
uniquely different than on cars today.
Too much support and infrastrucure for todays cars limits a lot of the
directions for innovation. That's one reason hybrids may have a huge
future - they use gasoline.

Carl