ABS pedal feel?

[GJ]

I guess the real answer to all of this is that if your driving style is such
that whether ABS makes a big difference is important, then I wouldn't let
you drive my car.

 

[Uncle Ben]

On Jan 18, 6:54 pm, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)"

The goal of ABS is not to stop the car in less distance, but to allow
control as it stops.

Once a wheel locks, it has little traction.  An anti-lock brake allows
you to steer while you stop, but may take more distance to stop you.

I won't be dogmatic about it, but I don't understand the explanation.
How can stopping distance be shorter with less traction?

Ben

 

[Uncle Ben]

....



I won't be dogmatic about it, but I don't understand the explanation.
How can stopping distance be shorter with less traction?

Ben

In further reading on the subject I found one case in which ABS takes
more distance: braking on soft surfaces. Locked wheels push the soft
material ahead forming a slight barrier. Otherwise, I believe that ABS
always stops you shorter.

Ben

 

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

Otherwise, I believe that ABS
always stops you shorter.

Change always to often, and you're there.

<http://www.abs-education.org/abcs/abctips.htm>

 

[Blair Baucom]

Glad to see someone who has actually considered the facts here besides
myself. There have been many tests done, many posted on the internet about
stopping distances. I read one of the first, many years ago when BMW
introduced ABS on cars where a magazine tested the same car with and without
ABS. All you have to do is look for this information. Lots of tests also
with the few motorcycles that offer ABS. Look hard enough, and you can read
about aircraft ABS where it all started.

Measuring stopping distance is not that hard on a given surface.

In the case of snow, dirt, gravel, where all four wheels are on these
surfaces, ABS can make stopping distances longer. Where I have always liked
ABS is on mixed surfaces where maybe one or two wheels have good traction,
and the ABS system can respond only to the wheels that have lost traction.
Unless you can use four brake pedals at the same time, this will be hard for
any driver to ever achieve.

I am on my 5th ABS equipped vehicle, and the next one will also have ABS.

Blair

On Jan 18, 6:54 pm, "Bonehenge (B A R R

....



I won't be dogmatic about it, but I don't understand the explanation.
How can stopping distance be shorter with less traction?

Ben

In further reading on the subject I found one case in which ABS takes
more distance: braking on soft surfaces. Locked wheels push the soft
material ahead forming a slight barrier. Otherwise, I believe that ABS
always stops you shorter.

Ben

 

[Bonehenge (B A R R Y)]

In the case of snow, dirt, gravel, where all four wheels are on these
surfaces, ABS can make stopping distances longer. Where I have always liked
ABS is on mixed surfaces where maybe one or two wheels have good traction,
and the ABS system can respond only to the wheels that have lost traction.
Unless you can use four brake pedals at the same time, this will be hard for
any driver to ever achieve.

I'm with ya'!

I fly airplanes with and without ABS, and without ABS, it can be
difficult to manage TWO brake pedals, and I have two feet. <G>

It's all about control.


I wouldn't buy a car without it, either.

 

[JD]

I'm with ya'!

I fly airplanes with and without ABS, and without ABS, it can be
difficult to manage TWO brake pedals, and I have two feet. <G>

It's all about control.


I wouldn't buy a car without it, either.

I'm with both of you. Most 'issues' with ABS are myths. Once the tires
break loose there is actualy less traction and no control. I am on my third
ABS-equipped car and will always have it; even if I have to pay extra for
the option.

 

[eachcornerpulling]

I fly airplanes with and without ABS, and without ABS, it can be
difficult to manage TWO brake pedals, and I have two feet. <G>
It's all about control.
I wouldn't buy a car without it, either.

The first (I think) ABS brakes on aircraft in the UK were called
Maxarets (the maker, I assume), installed on jet fighters in the 50's.

They were immediately popular with pilots because for the first time
you could apply full braking in an emergency, or on a short runway,
without fear of wheels locking up and bursting tires. I can never
understand why they took so long to appear on cars.

I drive on snow and ice 4-5 months of the year now and find ABS brakes
useful almost on a daily basis because one can use them to test how
slippery a road is. By giving a quick jab to feel the point the ABS
kicks in, one can easily gauge the state of the road without fear of
losing control.

 

[Ray]

Most of what I read, ABS takes longer to stop, but the Only advantage
is being able to steer while braking, but rollovers are 50% higher,
because if being able to steer, to avoid an accident, a tire gets
into dirt, it can dig in and the vehicle is more likely to flip. I'd
rather have Shorter braking distances, and Me avoiding contact.

I'm not entirely sold on ABS either but IMHO being able to turn during an
emergency stop is definately valuable. This past summer I had someone pull
out in front of me from a parking lot while I was traveling around 45-50 and
she compounded the problem by stopping in middle of the road once she saw me
coming. There was no way I could stop in time and I distinctly remember
wondering how far into her door my bumper was going to go. I ended up
getting on the brakes hard until the last moment and then letting off and
swerving around. ABS really didn't play any part but turning was certainly
better than JUST slamming on the brakes and hoping for the best.

 

[houndman]

I guess the real answer to all of this is that if your driving style is such
that whether ABS makes a big difference is important, then I wouldn't let
you drive my car.

It's a felling of comfort and confidence. I Wouldn't want to drive
Your car if the car wore me out, having to tense different muscles
than Should be needed to brake a car, like if the brakes are too
sensitive your calves and ankle will have to tighten not to hit them
too hard, and with a soft pedal that there is a lot of travel, you
are pushing your leg further, and Hoping the brakes start to work.
What's wrong with a Solid pedal that Starts working as Soon as
pressure is applied?? No unncessary muscle tensing or extending to Do
The Job. I always found too soft or sensitive, as bad as too hard.
whether braking, steering, or ride. Both will tire you out.

Looked into replacing the dual stage booster with a Single stage one
to Solve the problem, but the master cyl is different, and then the
brakes will have to be bled, and with the ABS and Select Monitor,
that's means the dealer doing it, and any grief about the change.
Umm!! Guess I'll see how it feels disconnecting the booster, thought
with disks, the pedal is supposed to be Really Hard, but one way to
find out. I once looked at a new car with disks that power was an
option. Guess I'll do it when I try pulling the ABS fuses. Would be
Nice if that fixed the mushy pedal, but I'm doubting it. Sounds like
many mfgs use the dual stage booster, and people who Like to Drive,
Don't Like It...

VF

 

[houndman]

In further reading on the subject I found one case in which ABS takes
more distance: braking on soft surfaces. Locked wheels push the soft
material ahead forming a slight barrier. Otherwise, I believe that ABS
always stops you shorter.

Ben

I don't know how the Sube ABS is going to work in all situations, but
what I have read is that ABS can be fooled, or not do what you think
it would or should. Now it might be in odd situations, like braking
going over a bump, but I have read many say that it does things you
wouldn't want, and Extend braking distance, even on ice, and That's
where I Thought I would want it. Maybe in an ideal situation For It,
it is better, but my instincts tell me I Don't want it, or to be able
to switch it on or off, and if I had a problem where I would have been
better off without it, I would be pissed I didn't do what I'd planned
to. I sure don't feel that confident in it.

VF

 

[houndman]

Glad to see someone who has actually considered the facts here besides
myself. There have been many tests done, many posted on the internet about
stopping distances. I read one of the first, many years ago when BMW
introduced ABS on cars where a magazine tested the same car with and without
ABS. All you have to do is look for this information. Lots of tests also
with the few motorcycles that offer ABS. Look hard enough, and you can read
about aircraft ABS where it all started.

Measuring stopping distance is not that hard on a given surface.

In the case of snow, dirt, gravel, where all four wheels are on these
surfaces, ABS can make stopping distances longer. Where I have always liked
ABS is on mixed surfaces where maybe one or two wheels have good traction,
and the ABS system can respond only to the wheels that have lost traction.
Unless you can use fourbrakepedals at the same time, this will be hard for
any driver to ever achieve.

I am on my 5th ABS equipped vehicle, and the next one will also have ABS.

Blair






In further reading on the subject I found one case in which ABS takes
more distance: braking on soft surfaces. Locked wheels push the soft
material ahead forming a slight barrier. Otherwise, I believe that ABS
always stops you shorter.

Ben

Blair,

Have you had situations where you feel the ABS helped you avoid an
accident?
I read that the Ins Institute claims, 50% more likely to roll over,
Because of the
ability to steer when braking. Now, having Never hit anything only
driving Non ABS cars,
I look at the roll over danger more of a danger than steering being an
advantage, and
where I usually drive, there is No place to steer to anyway, and not
hit something, so I'd
want the shortest stopping distance, and I adjust to conditions of
traffic and weather,
which is probably why I haven't hit anything in 45yrs.

I got into an argument with a friend when complaining about how torn
up bumpers get
here in the city, by parallel parkers. The paint was rubber off on the
corner of his bumper
so I made a comment. He Must Hit cars when he pulls out, because he
got Very irate
and told me you Have to hit a car pulling out. I got irate back at him
telling him I Don't,
and can count on one hand how many times I even tapped a bumper. He
called me a liar.
If I tap a car when parking, I feel like an idiot, that I couldn't
judge.
My old Chevy gets the
plastic end caps Peeled back almost every day. I took some mounting
bolts off so they
don't get creased any more than they are, till I can figure how to
secure them to the
metal bumpers. I want to put spikes sticking out. One side of my front
one was always
getting pushed in, and with another
car, I could kick the opposite side, and square it up, with this
Chevy, I need to get
behind the bumper with a 3' long pipe and beat on it with a 5lb hammer
for about 10min
to get the bumper out. I tried slowly ramming it into a bridge
abutment, after bruising
my thigh, and breaking a parking light when kicking it.
I wound up putting pieces of 2x3" between the bumper and the frame
and haven't had to bang it out since.

VF

 

[RW]

It's a felling of comfort and confidence. I Wouldn't want to drive
Your car if the car wore me out, having to tense different muscles
than Should be needed to brake a car, like if the brakes are too
sensitive your calves and ankle will have to tighten not to hit them
too hard, and with a soft pedal that there is a lot of travel, you
are pushing your leg further, and Hoping the brakes start to work.
What's wrong with a Solid pedal that Starts working as Soon as
pressure is applied?? No unncessary muscle tensing or extending to Do
The Job. I always found too soft or sensitive, as bad as too hard.
whether braking, steering, or ride. Both will tire you out.

Looked into replacing the dual stage booster with a Single stage one
to Solve the problem, but the master cyl is different, and then the
brakes will have to be bled, and with the ABS and Select Monitor,
that's means the dealer doing it, and any grief about the change.
Umm!! Guess I'll see how it feels disconnecting the booster, thought
with disks, the pedal is supposed to be Really Hard, but one way to
find out. I once looked at a new car with disks that power was an
option. Guess I'll do it when I try pulling the ABS fuses. Would be
Nice if that fixed the mushy pedal, but I'm doubting it. Sounds like
many mfgs use the dual stage booster, and people who Like to Drive,
Don't Like It...

VF

I have come to the conclusion that you are a fucking idiot.

 

[Blair Baucom]

Blair,

Have you had situations where you feel the ABS helped you avoid an
accident?
I read that the Ins Institute claims, 50% more likely to roll over,
Because of the
ability to steer when braking. Now, having Never hit anything only
driving Non ABS cars,
I look at the roll over danger more of a danger than steering being an
advantage, and
where I usually drive, there is No place to steer to anyway, and not
hit something, so I'd
want the shortest stopping distance, and I adjust to conditions of
traffic and weather,
which is probably why I haven't hit anything in 45yrs.

I got into an argument with a friend when complaining about how torn
up bumpers get
here in the city, by parallel parkers. The paint was rubber off on the
corner of his bumper
so I made a comment. He Must Hit cars when he pulls out, because he
got Very irate
and told me you Have to hit a car pulling out. I got irate back at him
telling him I Don't,
and can count on one hand how many times I even tapped a bumper. He
called me a liar.
If I tap a car when parking, I feel like an idiot, that I couldn't
judge.
My old Chevy gets the
plastic end caps Peeled back almost every day. I took some mounting
bolts off so they
don't get creased any more than they are, till I can figure how to
secure them to the
metal bumpers. I want to put spikes sticking out. One side of my front
one was always
getting pushed in, and with another
car, I could kick the opposite side, and square it up, with this
Chevy, I need to get
behind the bumper with a 3' long pipe and beat on it with a 5lb hammer
for about 10min
to get the bumper out. I tried slowly ramming it into a bridge
abutment, after bruising
my thigh, and breaking a parking light when kicking it.
I wound up putting pieces of 2x3" between the bumper and the frame
and haven't had to bang it out since.

VF

The best example was when a car pulled out from the right on a four lane
road and panicked and blocked the two right lanes with me heading at his
door at 35 mph. I had only seconds to determined he was going to stay there
and I was able to use maximum brake force and steer to the left of his front
end.and miss him.

Many times I have avoided skidding into an intersection where the surface is
mixed areas of ice, water and dry pavement with the ABS doing an excellent
job getting traction with the wheels that are able to have traction.

I have rolled two vehicles. one 1971 Ford Maverick no ABS, and 1996 Ford
Ranger XLT Supercab with four wheel ABS. Both times the rear passed me when
friction was less going sideways than forward. Both rolled when they hit
dirt with the tires going sideways. Both had light rears, that tended to
break lose, and solid rear axles that contributed to the end result.

Would like to see a report comparing rollovers to type of rear axle as this
was one of the main changes to the Ford Explorer after the high incidences
of rollover.

Just steering does not make a car rollover if you look at slalom results
around cones at speed, most pass the Consumer Reports slalom course except
the Suzuki Samurai a few years back. Most stunts to rollover a vehicle
involve a mortar to help get it to roll.

I found this tidbit, "NHTSA notes that 90 percent of rollovers happen not on
pavement, as in this test, but when the vehicle leaves the road. " from this
article:

http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/research/suv/jeepliberty112101.asp

This compares to my experience as both of my rollovers where after leaving
the road.

Blair

 

[houndman]

I have come to the conclusion that you are a fucking idiot.

How Sweet Jerk Off!! If you Don't like, Don't read. Not everyone is as
whipped as you. Some people go After what they want. You must eat what
they give or do to you and keep quiet, till someone does things you
are Afraid to, and then you try to CYA making idiot comments. No
ideas, then Get F'n Lost. Maybe a Little Testosterone will give you
some Balls, numb nuts.

FU AH