ABS and Highway Spinout!

[skye]

I really think ALL drivers should be taught to drive properly. The
above is simplistic and dangerous BS, if you ask me (I know, you
aren't). Sure, under some circumstances, it's probably correct to
steer straight toward an obstacle, but that situation is rare. Under
most circumstances, the instinctive reaction (to avoid hitting the
obstacle) is also (surprise surprise) the correct one. Where most
people come unstuck is in knowing the correct actions to take that
will result in avoiding the obstacle, and that's where educators
should be concentrating their efforts.

IF I had followed the above advice about never swerving, I would NOT BE
ALIVE today....

I could not agree more with this followup post advice...!

 

[S]

Hi George, All!

I really think ALL drivers should be taught to drive properly.

I couldn't agree more. I require my kids to put in a season of
autocross (no real hardship there after getting their license, in
the hope that they will learn at least some of the "body" skills
related to car handling. For all too many drivers, their first
sensation of the car loosing grip on the road and beginning to spin is
in the second or two before they hit something. At least the kids know
what it feels like to spin, and what to do about it.

The
above is simplistic and dangerous BS, if you ask me (I know, you
aren't). Sure, under some circumstances, it's probably correct to
steer straight toward an obstacle, but that situation is rare. Under
most circumstances, the instinctive reaction (to avoid hitting the
obstacle) is also (surprise surprise) the correct one. Where most
people come unstuck is in knowing the correct actions to take that
will result in avoiding the obstacle, and that's where educators
should be concentrating their efforts.

Well, maybe. Most drivers don't have access to facilities that train
"panic" responses. These have to be reflexive to be of any use at all;
in a panic situation, (by definition) there is never time to think
about the proper response. Your reflexes _will_ take over, and you
have to hope that they do the correct thing. In a low speed situation
(at residential speeds, say up to about 35MPH), the likelihood of an
abrupt steering&braking input putting the car into a spin are much
reduced, probably it will just understeer. At highway speeds, the same
input is probably gonna cause all four wheels to lose traction most
abruptly, and with often disastrous consequences. The art is in
knowing where the line is, but, again, your body has to know; you're
not likely to have time to think about it.
So you're toolin' along a winding mountain highway right at first
light, doin' 50-60MPH. There is a rocky hillside on your right, and a
steep drop-off on the other. Bambi jumps off of the hillside about
50ft in front of you. A skilled driver could probably do a dance on
the pedals and miss the deer, but the consequences of a mistake are
pretty grim. So Bambi walks, and you end up 100ft down in the rocks.
Seen that story played out too many times.
I maintain that if you are schooled such that your "panic" response is
to brake, not steer in a situation like this, on the average you are
gonna be better off. YMMV.

ByeBye! S.


Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

 

[George Adams]

From: S (e-mail address removed)

So you're toolin' along a winding mountain highway right at first
light, doin' 50-60MPH. There is a rocky hillside on your right, and a
steep drop-off on the other. Bambi jumps off of the hillside about
50ft in front of you.
A skilled driver could probably do a dance on
the pedals and miss the deer, but the consequences of a mistake are
pretty grim. So Bambi walks, and you end up 100ft down in the rocks.
Seen that story played out too many times.

That's OK if it's a hundred pound deer. Probably wouldn't even deploy the
airbags. If it's a six hundred pound moose, not uncommon in my area, it's a
whole different deal. What I'm saying here is that there are no hard and fast
rules. Each situation is unique. You're requirement of a year of autocross
isn't a bad idea.

For most folks who don't get that kind of experience, I would say, scrub off as
much speed as possible before attempting to swerve, and get off the brake when
you move the steering wheel. If the obstacle is light, (like a deer), you would
likely be better off to hit it. If it is a moose, or a stone wall, or a tree,
you would probably want to take evasive action.


George Adams

"All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of
youth that doth not grow stale with age."
---- J.W Muller

 

[FNO]

Hello. My husband had an incident with my 1999 Forester yesterday. He
was in the right lane of the Maine turnpike going about 60 mph,
preparing to exit about a half mile away. He was cut off by a carful
of kids and swerved into the breakdown lane to avoid being hit by
them. The Forester then went into a spin and ended up *across the
turnpike* in the left travel lane facing oncoming traffic.

LUCKILY no one was hurt and miraculously, the three lanes of oncoming
traffic all stopped to let this mishap play out. He's still in Maine
and I don't know the full story of exactly when and how he
braked...and I plan to have the dealer thoroughly inspect the ABS
system when he returns (I bought the car used at 30K at which point I
was told the rear brakes were brand new, which in itself is curious.
This was a former lease vehicle in New York). I replaced the front
brakes at 45K and the master cylinder was replaced on recall at the
time I bought the car.

My question to everyone is...do you think the ABS behaved properly in
such an emergency? (Luckily the car did not flip.) Am I expecting too
much of antilock brakes? I am very, very upset that my husband lost
control of the car and I'm thanking our lucky stars it didn't turn out
differently.

Please let me know what you all think... THANKS, Heidi

You are expecting too much. ABS prevents wheel lock-up so that you can
steer under hard braking. Cranking the wheel at 60MPH will cause a spin
whether you have ABS or not.

 

[Don]

You are expecting too much. ABS prevents wheel lock-up so that you can
steer under hard braking. Cranking the wheel at 60MPH will cause a spin
whether you have ABS or not.

I feel a lot of drivers don't understand ABS. It does reduce the lock-up
problem, but it's not a panacea. If you "lose traction", as on ice, the
wheels will lockup! It happens for in instant, but without traction the
wheel has no reason to start rolling again, especially if it's not headed
in the direction of travel.

Did you know BMW was the first to develope ABS for it's motorcycles many
years ago? I remember reading the article and it blew me away. They
had outriggers on the bike and hit the brakes HARD on soappy pavement.
It went straight. But, soapy pavement has more traction than glare ice
that's formed a thin layer of water between the ice and the tire.!
Username munged by FixNews

 

[steve ball]

I feel a lot of drivers don't understand ABS. It does reduce the lock-up
problem, but it's not a panacea. If you "lose traction", as on ice, the
wheels will lockup! It happens for in instant, but without traction the
wheel has no reason to start rolling again, especially if it's not headed
in the direction of travel.

Did you know BMW was the first to develope ABS for it's motorcycles many
years ago? I remember reading the article and it blew me away. They
had outriggers on the bike and hit the brakes HARD on soappy pavement.
It went straight. But, soapy pavement has more traction than glare ice
that's formed a thin layer of water between the ice and the tire.!
Username munged by FixNews

I've locked the rear wheel of my cycle a few of times. You can go straight
during wheel lock-up if you're going in a straight line when you lock the
wheel(s) up and don't turn the vehicle before you recover traction and the
vehicle suspension stabilizes.

I've also spun a VW Rabbit by stomping on the brake and turning hard when
someone ran a stop sign in front of me.

Steve

 

[Don]

I've locked the rear wheel of my cycle a few of times. You can go straight
during wheel lock-up if you're going in a straight line when you lock the
wheel(s) up and don't turn the vehicle before you recover traction and the
vehicle suspension stabilizes.

I've also spun a VW Rabbit by stomping on the brake and turning hard when
someone ran a stop sign in front of me.

Steve

My bike riding days were in the 50's and haven't followed them much
since then. I don't remember where/when I read the BMW ABS article,
but I was wide eyed reading it. It talked about the research, i.e.,
determing the right pulsations per second, etc.

I have yet to lockup the wheels on our '03 OB. But, long ago in my
racing days of the 60's (primarily slaloming with a Porsche) I learned
not to just jab the brake pedal hard. Now it's impossible to stomp on
the brakes even in an emergency. Which is not the way to use ABS
most efficiently!!!

What kind of bike were you refering to above?

Are more mfgs using ABS on bikes now days?
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[steve ball]

My bike riding days were in the 50's and haven't followed them much
since then. I don't remember where/when I read the BMW ABS article,
but I was wide eyed reading it. It talked about the research, i.e.,
determing the right pulsations per second, etc.

I have yet to lockup the wheels on our '03 OB. But, long ago in my
racing days of the 60's (primarily slaloming with a Porsche) I learned
not to just jab the brake pedal hard. Now it's impossible to stomp on
the brakes even in an emergency. Which is not the way to use ABS
most efficiently!!!

What kind of bike were you refering to above?

Are more mfgs using ABS on bikes now days?

I long ago learned to be more subtle while driving, and if I need to stomp on the
brake won't turn the wheel. If I need to steer, I won't brake heavily.

I ride an '82 Yamaha 400 Maxim. It's an odd bike, because they shared 90% of the
parts with the 400cc Seca. So it's got a tear drop tank, but a monoshock and
stressed frame engine.

AFAIK Motorcycles manufactures haven't adopted ABS like cars builders have. I
don't know of any other than the BMWs. But I wouldn't be surprised to find ABS on
a bike like a Honda Goldwing.

Steve

 

[Chris Phillipo]

I long ago learned to be more subtle while driving, and if I need to stomp on the
brake won't turn the wheel. If I need to steer, I won't brake heavily.

I ride an '82 Yamaha 400 Maxim. It's an odd bike, because they shared 90% of the
parts with the 400cc Seca. So it's got a tear drop tank, but a monoshock and
stressed frame engine.

AFAIK Motorcycles manufactures haven't adopted ABS like cars builders have. I
don't know of any other than the BMWs. But I wouldn't be surprised to find ABS on
a bike like a Honda Goldwing.

Steve

It's right next to the toilet and just above the TV/VCR!

 

[Bruce Hoult]

Did you know BMW was the first to develope ABS for it's motorcycles many
years ago? I remember reading the article and it blew me away. They
had outriggers on the bike and hit the brakes HARD on soappy pavement.
It went straight. But, soapy pavement has more traction than glare ice
that's formed a thin layer of water between the ice and the tire.!
Username munged by FixNews

I've locked the rear wheel of my cycle a few of times. You can go straight
during wheel lock-up if you're going in a straight line when you lock the
wheel(s) up and don't turn the vehicle before you recover traction and the
vehicle suspension stabilizes.[/QUOTE]

I've got a BMW bike with their 3rd generation ABS -- a 1995 R1100RT. I
took their easlier generations for at least one or two test rides each.

Their first ABS system was pretty crude. It seemed to cycle just a few
times per second and if it was the front wheel that you were braking
with it felt as if it was jumping over a puddle or something each time
the ABS unlocked.

When I took a 2nd generation bike out I tried it at about 60 mph on
grass on an airfield. It cycled quite a bit faster but you could still
feel it. But it was remarkably effective on that surface. With road
tyres (not knobblies) it was ripping out 6" divots of grass (with
attached topsoil) about every yard, or maybe a bit less.

With my bike you can feel an initial surge as the ABS kicks in
initially, but after that any cycling is undetectable. It just stops
smoothly, wet, dry, unsealed, grass. Once I got comfortable I tried
stomping on the rear brake while turning a little bit, then a little bit
more. Eventually I worked up to stomping hard on the rear brake while
leaned over 30 degrees in a 50 mph corner. The back end immediately
stepped out about a foot and then the ABS got it under control and the
bike came to a smooth stop while still turning. Of course it didn't
stop as fast as it would in a straight line (let alone if I'd used the
front brake), but then I didn't fall off either.

A very impressive system

I once got caught in the middle of nowhere (NZ's "Desert Road") in a
sudden dump of snow. I had a lot of trouble going up the hills because
it was so difficult to not apply too much power. But going downhill was
no problem as the ABS coped very smoothly with the icy conditions and
was able to keep both front and back wheels at close to maximum
traction. I don't believe there is any possible way I could have ridden
that large and heavy touring bike down those icy slopes without ABS.

In start contrast, several years ago I had a US-build (GM) rental car in
the snow in Seattle. It had ABS but it was *shocking*. It seemed to
trigger far too easily and had a very slow cycle time and was I think
worse than no ABS at all.

My Subaru's ABS is much better than that car (and I quite often drive on
grassy slopes while fetching sailplanes from fields) but it's not as
good as BMW's motorcycle ABS.

Not all ABS is created equal.

-- Bruce

 

[Rob Munach]

I've locked the rear wheel of my cycle a few of times. You can go straight
during wheel lock-up if you're going in a straight line when you lock the
wheel(s) up and don't turn the vehicle before you recover traction and the
vehicle suspension stabilizes.

I've got a BMW bike with their 3rd generation ABS -- a 1995 R1100RT. I
took their easlier generations for at least one or two test rides each.

Their first ABS system was pretty crude. It seemed to cycle just a few
times per second and if it was the front wheel that you were braking
with it felt as if it was jumping over a puddle or something each time
the ABS unlocked.

When I took a 2nd generation bike out I tried it at about 60 mph on
grass on an airfield. It cycled quite a bit faster but you could still
feel it. But it was remarkably effective on that surface. With road
tyres (not knobblies) it was ripping out 6" divots of grass (with
attached topsoil) about every yard, or maybe a bit less.

With my bike you can feel an initial surge as the ABS kicks in
initially, but after that any cycling is undetectable. It just stops
smoothly, wet, dry, unsealed, grass. Once I got comfortable I tried
stomping on the rear brake while turning a little bit, then a little bit
more. Eventually I worked up to stomping hard on the rear brake while
leaned over 30 degrees in a 50 mph corner. The back end immediately
stepped out about a foot and then the ABS got it under control and the
bike came to a smooth stop while still turning. Of course it didn't
stop as fast as it would in a straight line (let alone if I'd used the
front brake), but then I didn't fall off either.

A very impressive system

I once got caught in the middle of nowhere (NZ's "Desert Road") in a
sudden dump of snow. I had a lot of trouble going up the hills because
it was so difficult to not apply too much power. But going downhill was
no problem as the ABS coped very smoothly with the icy conditions and
was able to keep both front and back wheels at close to maximum
traction. I don't believe there is any possible way I could have ridden
that large and heavy touring bike down those icy slopes without ABS.

In start contrast, several years ago I had a US-build (GM) rental car in
the snow in Seattle. It had ABS but it was *shocking*. It seemed to
trigger far too easily and had a very slow cycle time and was I think
worse than no ABS at all.

My Subaru's ABS is much better than that car (and I quite often drive on
grassy slopes while fetching sailplanes from fields) but it's not as
good as BMW's motorcycle ABS.

Not all ABS is created equal.

-- Bruce[/QUOTE]
Funny, my 2001 Forester's ABS is awful. I had the left wheeles on ice
and the right ones on dry pavement and the thing took forever to stop -
almost sent me through and intersection. Ironically, I saw the dry
pavement on the right side and applied my brakes in what should have
been plenty of distance to stop. Without ABS, I could have easily
stopped much faster.

 

[Don]

I've locked the rear wheel of my cycle a few of times. You can go straight
during wheel lock-up if you're going in a straight line when you lock the
wheel(s) up and don't turn the vehicle before you recover traction and the
vehicle suspension stabilizes.

I've got a BMW bike with their 3rd generation ABS -- a 1995 R1100RT. I
took their easlier generations for at least one or two test rides each.

Their first ABS system was pretty crude. It seemed to cycle just a few
times per second and if it was the front wheel that you were braking
with it felt as if it was jumping over a puddle or something each time
the ABS unlocked.

When I took a 2nd generation bike out I tried it at about 60 mph on
grass on an airfield. It cycled quite a bit faster but you could still
feel it. But it was remarkably effective on that surface. With road
tyres (not knobblies) it was ripping out 6" divots of grass (with
attached topsoil) about every yard, or maybe a bit less.

With my bike you can feel an initial surge as the ABS kicks in
initially, but after that any cycling is undetectable. It just stops
smoothly, wet, dry, unsealed, grass. Once I got comfortable I tried
stomping on the rear brake while turning a little bit, then a little bit
more. Eventually I worked up to stomping hard on the rear brake while
leaned over 30 degrees in a 50 mph corner. The back end immediately
stepped out about a foot and then the ABS got it under control and the
bike came to a smooth stop while still turning. Of course it didn't
stop as fast as it would in a straight line (let alone if I'd used the
front brake), but then I didn't fall off either.

A very impressive system

I once got caught in the middle of nowhere (NZ's "Desert Road") in a
sudden dump of snow. I had a lot of trouble going up the hills because
it was so difficult to not apply too much power. But going downhill was
no problem as the ABS coped very smoothly with the icy conditions and
was able to keep both front and back wheels at close to maximum
traction. I don't believe there is any possible way I could have ridden
that large and heavy touring bike down those icy slopes without ABS.

In start contrast, several years ago I had a US-build (GM) rental car in
the snow in Seattle. It had ABS but it was *shocking*. It seemed to
trigger far too easily and had a very slow cycle time and was I think
worse than no ABS at all.

My Subaru's ABS is much better than that car (and I quite often drive on
grassy slopes while fetching sailplanes from fields) but it's not as
good as BMW's motorcycle ABS.

Not all ABS is created equal.

-- Bruce[/QUOTE]

Great user report, Bruce. I'm as wide eyed after reading your message
as I was when I first read the ABS development article. Sounds like
magic!

I'm starting to remember that I read the article in the BMW club
magazine back about 1986 or so. I'd just retired and spent all my
retirement bonus on an 1884 BMW 528e. I've always bought Prosche
but decided in an area with NO Porsche mechanics I'd switch to BMW
where there was a dealer.

That car was something else. Black/black, 4-door, looked for all the
world like a Mafia car. Cruise at 125, take freeway off ramps at 100+
and beg for more. It didn't have ABS but it made up for it in all
other ways. Only a 2.8L engine, but it would hold 80mph with the
cruise control on even the steepest -hills-, not mountains, in northern
New Mexico...USA that is.

Ten years later I moved to Spokane, WA and got a 1988 Carrera that you
could throw around at 125. WOW! Ah, memories. ;-)

Thanks, again. Hope others enjoyed your message also.

Don
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[Ross]

Funny, my 2001 Forester's ABS is awful. I had the left wheeles on ice

and the right ones on dry pavement and the thing took forever to stop -
almost sent me through and intersection. Ironically, I saw the dry
pavement on the right side and applied my brakes in what should have
been plenty of distance to stop. Without ABS, I could have easily
stopped much faster.

With half the cars rubber on ice and half on dry road if you applied full
braking force the car would start to spin as you have practically zero
traction on the left and 100% on the right. I tried this on an old runway
in a car with no ABS to see what happened. as the car started to spin the
rear wheel on the dry ended up on the ice and the car snapped round 180 in a
flash.

If the ABS had any intelegence etc it was probably correcting your error of
applying the brakes too hard and keeping the car going in a straight line by
reducing the stopping ability of the left.

Alternatively the abs is not 4 channel and was pulsing one or both the
wheels with the grip exactly as it is on the ice on the left, i think
earlier foresters were only 3 chanel ie each front wheel on a channel of
their own and both back wheels on one channel. in these curcumstances youd
only have one wheel stopping you which would explain why you took too long
to stop.

Ross