What to do. Bad rod in Outback

[Sheldon]

My mechanic tells me I have a bad rod in my '97 Outback. It still runs, and
everything on the car works, but I'm waiting for an estimate on a rebuilt
engine. Mechanic said I should park it. I paid $4500 for the car about 5
years ago, and my options are putting a new engine into a '97 Outback with
over 200,000 miles on it, buying a used Outback or buying a new Outback.

Hate to spend the bucks on a new one, and something around '05 might be a
good deal. I'm just looking to bounce this off some other owners. Is it
worth putting an engine in a car this old? I'm thinking if I do it, and
somebody takes out a headlight, they will probably total the car on me.

Thanks.

 

[weelliott]

My mechanic tells me I have a bad rod in my '97 Outback.  It still runs, and
everything on the car works, but I'm waiting for an estimate on a rebuilt
engine.  Mechanic said I should park it.  I paid $4500 for the car about 5
years ago, and my options are putting a new engine into a '97 Outback with
over 200,000 miles on it, buying a used Outback or buying a new Outback.

Hate to spend the bucks on a new one, and something around '05 might be a
good deal.  I'm just looking to bounce this off some other owners.  Is it
worth putting an engine in a car this old?  I'm thinking if I do it, and
somebody takes out a headlight, they will probably total the car on me.

Thanks.

I doubt it is worth it. Unless you have religioiusly maintained every
aspect of the car like suspension wear points and stuff like that, the
car has no rust anywhere, and there is nothing else wrong with it, I
jsut can't see putting that much money into it. In the end you will
have a car worth what you put into it. I'd suggest putting a junkyard
engine into it. You could do it yourself for about 200 to 800 bucks
depnding on teh pricing policy of the yard. Or if you have a shop do
it, it would probably be 1500 or so, which would probably get you an
engine that would still outlast the rest of the car.

The only wrench in the works of that plan is that engines of that era
often died of HG failures, so it might be hard to find a good 2.5
liter for that year. I wonder if a more current one, or even the 2.2
liter from the legacy could b made to work without too much hassle.

Bill

 

[Frank]

My mechanic tells me I have a bad rod in my '97 Outback.  It still runs, and
everything on the car works, but I'm waiting for an estimate on a rebuilt
engine.  Mechanic said I should park it.  I paid $4500 for the car about 5
years ago, and my options are putting a new engine into a '97 Outback with
over 200,000 miles on it, buying a used Outback or buying a new Outback.

Hate to spend the bucks on a new one, and something around '05 might be a
good deal.  I'm just looking to bounce this off some other owners.  Is it
worth putting an engine in a car this old?  I'm thinking if I do it, and
somebody takes out a headlight, they will probably total the car on me.

Thanks.

My rule of thumb is that when cost of repair exceeds the book value of
the car, get rid of it.
No matter how much money you put in a car, if it gets wrecked or
stolen, insurance company will only give you book value.

Don't know how true it is for other Subaru dealers, but my dealer
makes more money selling used Subaru's than new.

 

[johninky]

Engines with a rod knock don't have long to live. Remaining life can
be measured in tens of miles. I'd have another opinion before I
replaced the engine. What you may have is a failing timing belt
pulley. Have the oil pressure tested with a gauge. If still good
then probably do not have a failing rod bearing.

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

My mechanic tells me I have a bad rod in my '97 Outback.  It still runs, and
everything on the car works, but I'm waiting for an estimate on a rebuilt
engine.  Mechanic said I should park it.  I paid $4500 for the car about 5
years ago, and my options are putting a new engine into a '97 Outback with
over 200,000 miles on it, buying a used Outback or buying a new Outback.

Hate to spend the bucks on a new one, and something around '05 might be a
good deal.  I'm just looking to bounce this off some other owners.  Is it
worth putting an engine in a car this old?  I'm thinking if I do it, and
somebody takes out a headlight, they will probably total the car on me.

Thanks.

Like others have said - you probably have 3 ways to go. If you can
afford it, replace the car. Used or new is your choice.
If you are 'poor', then perhaps a used engine OR partial/full rebuild
is the only option. In addition to a junkyard engine, maybe price a
short block from CCR. http://www.ccrengines.com/

 

[Dave__67]

My mechanic tells me I have a bad rod in my '97 Outback.  It still runs, and
everything on the car works, but I'm waiting for an estimate on a rebuilt
engine.  Mechanic said I should park it.  I paid $4500 for the car about 5
years ago, and my options are putting a new engine into a '97 Outback with
over 200,000 miles on it, buying a used Outback or buying a new Outback.

Hate to spend the bucks on a new one, and something around '05 might be a
good deal.  I'm just looking to bounce this off some other owners.  Is it
worth putting an engine in a car this old?  I'm thinking if I do it, and
somebody takes out a headlight, they will probably total the car on me.

Thanks.

Bad rod, or does it just have a case of piston-slap?

That mistake has been made before, and they can slap and run fine for
a looooong time.



Dave

 

[S]

Hi Sheldon!

My mechanic tells me I have a bad rod in my '97 Outback. It still runs, and
everything on the car works, but I'm waiting for an estimate on a rebuilt
engine. Mechanic said I should park it. I paid $4500 for the car about 5
years ago, and my options are putting a new engine into a '97 Outback with
over 200,000 miles on it, buying a used Outback or buying a new Outback.

Hate to spend the bucks on a new one, and something around '05 might be a
good deal. I'm just looking to bounce this off some other owners. Is it
worth putting an engine in a car this old? I'm thinking if I do it, and
somebody takes out a headlight, they will probably total the car on me.

Subaru engines _can_ be rebuilt, but it isn't trivial; I'd suggest
finding a decent salvage yard motor. You might even try ebay;
sometimes you can get lo-mileage JDM engines relatively inexpensively.

If you are capable of doing the engine swap yourself, it's probably
worthwhile. If not . . .

And what John is saying is absolutely true: I bought a '99 Forester
last year (well, year before, now :-] with what sounded for all the
world like a bad rod knock. Price was cheap enuf that I was simply
gonna put in another engine. When I was in the process of removing the
"bad" engine, I found that the bearing in one of the idler pulleys
(specifically the cogged one) had totally disintegrated. I replaced
the timing belt and idlers, and drive it daily.

When I did the timing belt service on my wife's '02 Forry at about
115K, the same pulley was in the process of failing. Both cars have
the SOHC 2.5l engine.

I don't know of a real definitive way to check for this short of
pulling the timing belt center cover. Perhaps if you were to remove
the left side cover, use a grabber tool to reach into the bottom of
the center cover with a clean oiled rag, swish it around a bit, and
look for metal shavings. If you find any, that would be a good
indicator of a failed bearing. You might pass this on to your
mechanic.

Good luck!

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

Hi Sheldon!

My mechanic tells me I have a bad rod in my '97 Outback.  It still runs, and
everything on the car works, but I'm waiting for an estimate on a rebuilt
engine.  Mechanic said I should park it.  I paid $4500 for the car about 5
years ago, and my options are putting a new engine into a '97 Outback with
over 200,000 miles on it, buying a used Outback or buying a new Outback.

Hate to spend the bucks on a new one, and something around '05 might be a
good deal.  I'm just looking to bounce this off some other owners.  Is it
worth putting an engine in a car this old?  I'm thinking if I do it, and
somebody takes out a headlight, they will probably total the car on me.

Subaru engines _can_ be rebuilt, but it isn't trivial; I'd suggest
finding a decent salvage yard motor. You might even try ebay;
sometimes you can get lo-mileage JDM engines relatively inexpensively.

If you are capable of doing the engine swap yourself, it's probably
worthwhile. If not . . .

And what John is saying is absolutely true: I bought a '99 Forester
last year (well, year before, now :-] with what sounded for all the
world like a bad rod knock. Price was cheap enuf that I was simply
gonna put in another engine. When I was in the process of removing the
"bad" engine, I found that the bearing in one of the idler pulleys
(specifically the cogged one) had totally disintegrated. I replaced
the timing belt and idlers, and drive it daily.

When I did the timing belt service on my wife's '02 Forry at about
115K, the same pulley was in the process of failing. Both cars have
the SOHC 2.5l engine.

I don't know of a real definitive way to check for this short of
pulling the timing belt center cover. Perhaps if you were to remove
the left side cover, use a grabber tool to reach into the bottom of
the center cover with a clean oiled rag, swish it around a bit, and
look for metal shavings. If you find any, that would be a good
indicator of a failed bearing. You might pass this on to your
mechanic.

Good luck!

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

Good point, a timing belt flopping around can sound weird. Probably
look for a rubbed area inside the covers.

I assumed the piston slap would have shown up long before - still,
probably a good idea to get second opinion on the noise.

 

[clare]

Engines with a rod knock don't have long to live. Remaining life can
be measured in tens of miles. I'd have another opinion before I
replaced the engine. What you may have is a failing timing belt
pulley. Have the oil pressure tested with a gauge. If still good
then probably do not have a failing rod bearing.

My thoughts exactly. The bottom end on a Soob is pretty bulletproof.
Check oil pressure and timing belt. Was the Mechanic able to tell you
which rod was noizy? If it's a rod, and he's good, he can tell you.

If it's a rod, the noize will change significantly when one plug wire
is shorted to ground - and only on the cyl with the bad rod.

It will also generally knock more on coast than when under load, but
that is not ALWAYS the case.

 

[clare]

Like others have said - you probably have 3 ways to go. If you can
afford it, replace the car. Used or new is your choice.
If you are 'poor', then perhaps a used engine OR partial/full rebuild
is the only option. In addition to a junkyard engine, maybe price a
short block from CCR. http://www.ccrengines.com/

Or a Japanese domestic import. Put your bits on it and it will pass
north american emissiomns.

 

[.._..]

One of the characteristics of piston slap is it is more audible when the
engine is cold.

Mine goes away completely after a 20 minute drive. On some though, it will
re-appear if you hit the gas hard.

Hi Sheldon!

My mechanic tells me I have a bad rod in my '97 Outback. It still runs,
and
everything on the car works, but I'm waiting for an estimate on a rebuilt
engine. Mechanic said I should park it. I paid $4500 for the car about 5
years ago, and my options are putting a new engine into a '97 Outback
with
over 200,000 miles on it, buying a used Outback or buying a new Outback.

Hate to spend the bucks on a new one, and something around '05 might be a
good deal. I'm just looking to bounce this off some other owners. Is it
worth putting an engine in a car this old? I'm thinking if I do it, and
somebody takes out a headlight, they will probably total the car on me.

Subaru engines _can_ be rebuilt, but it isn't trivial; I'd suggest
finding a decent salvage yard motor. You might even try ebay;
sometimes you can get lo-mileage JDM engines relatively inexpensively.

If you are capable of doing the engine swap yourself, it's probably
worthwhile. If not . . .

And what John is saying is absolutely true: I bought a '99 Forester
last year (well, year before, now :-] with what sounded for all the
world like a bad rod knock. Price was cheap enuf that I was simply
gonna put in another engine. When I was in the process of removing the
"bad" engine, I found that the bearing in one of the idler pulleys
(specifically the cogged one) had totally disintegrated. I replaced
the timing belt and idlers, and drive it daily.

When I did the timing belt service on my wife's '02 Forry at about
115K, the same pulley was in the process of failing. Both cars have
the SOHC 2.5l engine.

I don't know of a real definitive way to check for this short of
pulling the timing belt center cover. Perhaps if you were to remove
the left side cover, use a grabber tool to reach into the bottom of
the center cover with a clean oiled rag, swish it around a bit, and
look for metal shavings. If you find any, that would be a good
indicator of a failed bearing. You might pass this on to your
mechanic.

Good luck!

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

Good point, a timing belt flopping around can sound weird. Probably
look for a rubbed area inside the covers.

I assumed the piston slap would have shown up long before - still,
probably a good idea to get second opinion on the noise.

 

[clare]

One of the characteristics of piston slap is it is more audible when the
engine is cold.

Mine goes away completely after a 20 minute drive. On some though, it will
re-appear if you hit the gas hard.

Rod Knock and piston slap are two totally different animals, with
different causes, symptoms, and prognosis.
Poth require the engine to come apart for repair, but that's about as
far as the similarity goes.

An engine with mild piston slap when cold may run another 250,000 km
without any damage - like my first Aerostar did.

An engine with a rod knock WILL die in a short time - perhaps if you
are lucky a few hundred or a few thousand kilometers.

Hi Sheldon!

My mechanic tells me I have a bad rod in my '97 Outback. It still runs,
and
everything on the car works, but I'm waiting for an estimate on a rebuilt
engine. Mechanic said I should park it. I paid $4500 for the car about 5
years ago, and my options are putting a new engine into a '97 Outback
with
over 200,000 miles on it, buying a used Outback or buying a new Outback.

Hate to spend the bucks on a new one, and something around '05 might be a
good deal. I'm just looking to bounce this off some other owners. Is it
worth putting an engine in a car this old? I'm thinking if I do it, and
somebody takes out a headlight, they will probably total the car on me.

Subaru engines _can_ be rebuilt, but it isn't trivial; I'd suggest
finding a decent salvage yard motor. You might even try ebay;
sometimes you can get lo-mileage JDM engines relatively inexpensively.

If you are capable of doing the engine swap yourself, it's probably
worthwhile. If not . . .

And what John is saying is absolutely true: I bought a '99 Forester
last year (well, year before, now :-] with what sounded for all the
world like a bad rod knock. Price was cheap enuf that I was simply
gonna put in another engine. When I was in the process of removing the
"bad" engine, I found that the bearing in one of the idler pulleys
(specifically the cogged one) had totally disintegrated. I replaced
the timing belt and idlers, and drive it daily.

When I did the timing belt service on my wife's '02 Forry at about
115K, the same pulley was in the process of failing. Both cars have
the SOHC 2.5l engine.

I don't know of a real definitive way to check for this short of
pulling the timing belt center cover. Perhaps if you were to remove
the left side cover, use a grabber tool to reach into the bottom of
the center cover with a clean oiled rag, swish it around a bit, and
look for metal shavings. If you find any, that would be a good
indicator of a failed bearing. You might pass this on to your
mechanic.

Good luck!

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

Good point, a timing belt flopping around can sound weird. Probably
look for a rubbed area inside the covers.

I assumed the piston slap would have shown up long before - still,
probably a good idea to get second opinion on the noise.

 

[Big Jim]

ALL dealers make more money selling used cars of all makes. In NJ most
dealers mark up tradeins $4k or so. New cars can be had for near
invoice with a little dealing and research.

 

[Sheldon]

My mechanic tells me I have a bad rod in my '97 Outback. It still runs,
and
everything on the car works, but I'm waiting for an estimate on a rebuilt
engine. Mechanic said I should park it. I paid $4500 for the car about 5
years ago, and my options are putting a new engine into a '97 Outback with
over 200,000 miles on it, buying a used Outback or buying a new Outback.

Hate to spend the bucks on a new one, and something around '05 might be a
good deal. I'm just looking to bounce this off some other owners. Is it
worth putting an engine in a car this old? I'm thinking if I do it, and
somebody takes out a headlight, they will probably total the car on me.

Thanks.

My rule of thumb is that when cost of repair exceeds the book value of
the car, get rid of it.
No matter how much money you put in a car, if it gets wrecked or
stolen, insurance company will only give you book value.

Don't know how true it is for other Subaru dealers, but my dealer
makes more money selling used Subaru's than new.

Every car dealer makes more on used than new.

 

[Sheldon]

My thoughts exactly. The bottom end on a Soob is pretty bulletproof.
Check oil pressure and timing belt. Was the Mechanic able to tell you
which rod was noizy? If it's a rod, and he's good, he can tell you.

If it's a rod, the noize will change significantly when one plug wire
is shorted to ground - and only on the cyl with the bad rod.

It will also generally knock more on coast than when under load, but
that is not ALWAYS the case.

To my ear it's more of a tick than a knock. It quiets under load and quiets
when I take my foot off the gas. It's noisiest when I just press the gas
when moving -- not pulling and not coasting.

 

[Sheldon]

My mechanic tells me I have a bad rod in my '97 Outback. It still runs,
and
everything on the car works, but I'm waiting for an estimate on a rebuilt
engine. Mechanic said I should park it. I paid $4500 for the car about 5
years ago, and my options are putting a new engine into a '97 Outback with
over 200,000 miles on it, buying a used Outback or buying a new Outback.

Hate to spend the bucks on a new one, and something around '05 might be a
good deal. I'm just looking to bounce this off some other owners. Is it
worth putting an engine in a car this old? I'm thinking if I do it, and
somebody takes out a headlight, they will probably total the car on me.

Thanks.

Bad rod, or does it just have a case of piston-slap?

That mistake has been made before, and they can slap and run fine for
a looooong time.


Dave

I"m wondering the same thing. It sounds more like a ticking to me than a
knock. Mostly when just pressing the gas when moving, not when coasting or
under acceleration.

 

[Sheldon]

One of the characteristics of piston slap is it is more audible when the
engine is cold.

Mine goes away completely after a 20 minute drive. On some though, it
will
re-appear if you hit the gas hard.

Rod Knock and piston slap are two totally different animals, with
different causes, symptoms, and prognosis.
Poth require the engine to come apart for repair, but that's about as
far as the similarity goes.

An engine with mild piston slap when cold may run another 250,000 km
without any damage - like my first Aerostar did.

An engine with a rod knock WILL die in a short time - perhaps if you
are lucky a few hundred or a few thousand kilometers.

Hi Sheldon!

On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 23:12:35 -0700, "Sheldon"

My mechanic tells me I have a bad rod in my '97 Outback. It still runs,
and
everything on the car works, but I'm waiting for an estimate on a
rebuilt
engine. Mechanic said I should park it. I paid $4500 for the car about
5
years ago, and my options are putting a new engine into a '97 Outback
with
over 200,000 miles on it, buying a used Outback or buying a new
Outback.

Hate to spend the bucks on a new one, and something around '05 might be
a
good deal. I'm just looking to bounce this off some other owners. Is it
worth putting an engine in a car this old? I'm thinking if I do it, and
somebody takes out a headlight, they will probably total the car on me.

Subaru engines _can_ be rebuilt, but it isn't trivial; I'd suggest
finding a decent salvage yard motor. You might even try ebay;
sometimes you can get lo-mileage JDM engines relatively inexpensively.

If you are capable of doing the engine swap yourself, it's probably
worthwhile. If not . . .

And what John is saying is absolutely true: I bought a '99 Forester
last year (well, year before, now :-] with what sounded for all the
world like a bad rod knock. Price was cheap enuf that I was simply
gonna put in another engine. When I was in the process of removing the
"bad" engine, I found that the bearing in one of the idler pulleys
(specifically the cogged one) had totally disintegrated. I replaced
the timing belt and idlers, and drive it daily.

When I did the timing belt service on my wife's '02 Forry at about
115K, the same pulley was in the process of failing. Both cars have
the SOHC 2.5l engine.

I don't know of a real definitive way to check for this short of
pulling the timing belt center cover. Perhaps if you were to remove
the left side cover, use a grabber tool to reach into the bottom of
the center cover with a clean oiled rag, swish it around a bit, and
look for metal shavings. If you find any, that would be a good
indicator of a failed bearing. You might pass this on to your
mechanic.

Good luck!

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

Good point, a timing belt flopping around can sound weird. Probably
look for a rubbed area inside the covers.

I assumed the piston slap would have shown up long before - still,
probably a good idea to get second opinion on the noise.

I think I'm going to get a third opinion. The problem is the car runs so
damn good except for the noise. Good mileage and good acceleration. If I
was deaf I wouldn't know it has a problem. And, it sounds more like a valve
than a rod, but two mechanics have told me now, just from listening, it's
internal. Maybe it is the timing belt. I wonder how much they will charge
me to just do an inspection. Otherwise, if it is going to die, I may as
well drive it until it does. How much more harm can I do?

Very hard to find a decent assortment of AWD used cars in Colorado in the
winter.

Thanks for the hopeful comments.

 

[clare]

To my ear it's more of a tick than a knock. It quiets under load and quiets
when I take my foot off the gas. It's noisiest when I just press the gas
when moving -- not pulling and not coasting.

Sounds more like a piston slap - or a sticky wrist pin. I'd be AWFULL
tempted to try a dose of Marvel Mystery Oil or Rislone to see if you
have a varnished up wrist pin causing the piston too tip. Keep engine
speed down in the meantime. Is it worse cold or hot?

 

[S]

Hi Sheldon!

I think I'm going to get a third opinion. The problem is the car runs so
damn good except for the noise. Good mileage and good acceleration. If I
was deaf I wouldn't know it has a problem. And, it sounds more like a valve
than a rod, but two mechanics have told me now, just from listening, it's
internal. Maybe it is the timing belt. I wonder how much they will charge
me to just do an inspection.

A lot, if they are gonna do it right, 'cause the timing belt center
cover has to come off, This means removing the radiator, accessories
and associated belts, and the harmonic balance pulley. Halfway thru a
timing belt job at that point

Otherwise, if it is going to die, I may as
well drive it until it does. How much more harm can I do?

One thing: valve noise or piston slap, you can generally drive the car
for a good while with little apparent change in the noise, and
probably little risk of catastrophic failure. Rod knock will get
rapidly worse (as in over a couple tanks of gas or less), and then
generally fail spectacularly.

_Bad_ rod knock sounds like someone hammering vigorously on the engine
block in time with the crank rotation, and is generally loudest while
the engine speed is falling. By that, I mean that when you rev the
engine the sound gets a bit quieter; when you let go of the throttle
it gets LOUD; clackety, clackety, clack!!! It's an alarming sound, and
you will not be tempted to continue driving your car once it gets to
this point.

Very hard to find a decent assortment of AWD used cars in Colorado in the
winter.

They're out there, just 'pensive. Some places, such as Boulder are
much worse. Try the Colorado Springs or Pueblo craigslist.

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

 

[Sheldon]

Sounds more like a piston slap - or a sticky wrist pin. I'd be AWFULL
tempted to try a dose of Marvel Mystery Oil or Rislone to see if you
have a varnished up wrist pin causing the piston too tip. Keep engine
speed down in the meantime. Is it worse cold or hot?

Thanks. It started as a rather quiet tick, mostly when cold. Now it really
doesn't matter cold or hot, and it gets really cold here at night and early
morning. Starts up fine.