Things they don't tell you about your AWD Subaru

[S]

Hi All!

Two words: Torque Bind

Inside of your AWD transmission is a clutch pack which allows the rear
drive to "slip" a bit during tight turns and such, thus eliminating
the klunk-klunk-klunk noise/sensation (torque bind) you would get
otherwise.

Fine and dandy, but what do you do when this clutch begins to wear
out?

Sadly, as far as I can determine, you buy a new transmission; $3,500
for a manual box, and (gasp) $5,500 for the automatic version.

I replaced the manual transmission in my wife's '02 Forry (140K miles)
last weekend for this very reason. Fortunately, I was able to locate a
reasonably low milage specimen at a local salvage yard, but what
happens a year or two down the road when _all_ of these cars have
accumulated enough milage for the AWD clutch to be questionable? Gonna
be real tough to find a good used one, I can guarantee that!

The next time I have a spare "round-tuit", I plan to pull the bad
tranny apart to see how difficult it is to extract the AWD clutch, and
also to see if there are repair/refurbish options available thru a
machine shop. I will post my findings when I do, but meanwhile, I must
say that this makes it unlikely that I will purchase another AWD
Subaru. (And this from a looooong time Subaru advocate.)

My old 4X4 GL wagon looks better by the day

Any comments on this more than welcome!

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

 

[S.Hansen]

Hi All!

Two words: Torque Bind

Inside of your AWD transmission is a clutch pack which allows the rear
drive to "slip" a bit during tight turns and such, thus eliminating
the klunk-klunk-klunk noise/sensation (torque bind) you would get
otherwise.

Fine and dandy, but what do you do when this clutch begins to wear
out?

Sadly, as far as I can determine, you buy a new transmission; $3,500
for a manual box, and (gasp) $5,500 for the automatic version.

I replaced the manual transmission in my wife's '02 Forry (140K miles)
last weekend for this very reason. Fortunately, I was able to locate a
reasonably low milage specimen at a local salvage yard, but what
happens a year or two down the road when _all_ of these cars have
accumulated enough milage for the AWD clutch to be questionable? Gonna
be real tough to find a good used one, I can guarantee that!

The next time I have a spare "round-tuit", I plan to pull the bad
tranny apart to see how difficult it is to extract the AWD clutch, and
also to see if there are repair/refurbish options available thru a
machine shop. I will post my findings when I do, but meanwhile, I must
say that this makes it unlikely that I will purchase another AWD
Subaru. (And this from a looooong time Subaru advocate.)

My old 4X4 GL wagon looks better by the day

Any comments on this more than welcome!

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

Wow, you replaced a transmission because of torque bind? The clutch pack is
located at the tail shaft of the transmission and fully accessible with the
transmission in the car.
The engine drive all the magic stuff to the tail shaft and the cultch pack
sends the torque to the rear and sends the other part back forward to the
front diff.
Mind you, replacing the clutch pack requires measuring and shimming the
assy, so the average person (and many shops) will not have the proper shims
to do that part at home. Generally speaking, the clutch pack is a sealed
unit and not serviceable short of replacing it. it has it's own oil in it.
There are other things that happen to cause torque bind type problem, and
working in a Subaru shop I see more subies die for engine problems than
transmissions. And as for torque bind clutch pack issues Maybe 1 or 2 a
year.
Steve

 

[johninky]

Been lurking on half a dozen Subaru forums the last 10 years and this
is the first time that I can recall anyone has posted a torque-bind
problem with a manual transmission. Not that it makes you feel any
better but what you experienced is a very rare failure. I know the
clutch pack for the automatic transmission is located on the rear of
the transmission but I think for the manual transmission it is located
internally. Never had a manual Subaru so not sure about that.

 

[.._..]

I really hope you looked at tire radius before assuming the clutch pack was
bad.

 

[Catherine Jefferson]

Been lurking on half a dozen Subaru forums the last 10 years and this
is the first time that I can recall anyone has posted a torque-bind
problem with a manual transmission. Not that it makes you feel any
better but what you experienced is a very rare failure. I know the
clutch pack for the automatic transmission is located on the rear of
the transmission but I think for the manual transmission it is located
internally. Never had a manual Subaru so not sure about that.

Yeah. Unless there was an unreported problem with those particular
tranny models and they're all gonna fail. I've owned a string of AWD
Subarus that I've driven to well over 150K miles each with no such
problem and no need to replace the transmission. I haven't heard of or
found reports of others running into that problem either. But then, I
drive automatics.

 

[StephenH]

Been lurking on half a dozen Subaru forums the last 10 years and this
is the first time that I can recall anyone has posted a torque-bind
problem with a manual transmission.  Not that it makes you feel any
better but what you experienced is a very rare failure.  I know the
clutch pack for the automatic transmission is located on the rear of
the transmission but I think for the manual transmission it is located
internally.  Never had a manual Subaru so not sure about that.

all clutch packs are at the tail shaft, manual or auto's

 

[Guest]

Hi All!

Two words: Torque Bind

Inside of your AWD transmission is a clutch pack which allows the rear
drive to "slip" a bit during tight turns and such, thus eliminating
the klunk-klunk-klunk noise/sensation (torque bind) you would get
otherwise.

Fine and dandy, but what do you do when this clutch begins to wear
out?

Sadly, as far as I can determine, you buy a new transmission; $3,500
for a manual box, and (gasp) $5,500 for the automatic version.

I replaced the manual transmission in my wife's '02 Forry (140K miles)
last weekend for this very reason. Fortunately, I was able to locate a
reasonably low milage specimen at a local salvage yard, but what
happens a year or two down the road when _all_ of these cars have
accumulated enough milage for the AWD clutch to be questionable? Gonna
be real tough to find a good used one, I can guarantee that!

The next time I have a spare "round-tuit", I plan to pull the bad
tranny apart to see how difficult it is to extract the AWD clutch, and
also to see if there are repair/refurbish options available thru a
machine shop. I will post my findings when I do, but meanwhile, I must
say that this makes it unlikely that I will purchase another AWD
Subaru. (And this from a looooong time Subaru advocate.)

My old 4X4 GL wagon looks better by the day

Any comments on this more than welcome!

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

Torque bind is quite rare if the tires are all kept reasonably close
in diameter.

A bit of research before replacing the trans would probably have saved
you some money.


Dave

 

[S]

Hi All!

Torque bind is quite rare if the tires are all kept reasonably close
in diameter.

A bit of research before replacing the trans would probably have saved
you some money.

C'mon spamTHIS, the car has nearly new tires, and I replaced _both_
front axles before swapping the tranny. Been there, done that. In
fact, I had a hard time believing that the tranny could be at fault,
but the (~90K miles on it) replacement transmission fixed the problem.
For now.

I too have owned numerous AWD Soobies, some with serious mileage:

A '91 Legacy Turbo sedan that had 170K or so with no issues while I
owned it.
An '02 WRX. that I didn't really like (crummy mileage, sluggish turbo,
incurable understeer ), and so sold it at about 25K.
A '96 Legacy sedan (my wife's) with an AT. A bit over 160K with no
serious issues.
A '90 Legacy wagon with close to 300K when I sold it, but I replaced
the tranny on it at about 230K for a different reason; it wouldn't
stay in 4th gear. Should've kept that car, tho; it was a good'un.
A fairly low mileage '95 Impreza Wagon that I bought with a bad AT
(hydraulic pump failure), fixed and sold.
My current DD, a '99 Forester with 115K. I love the car, and am
driving it today, but seriously considering craigs-listing it before
it, too has problems.
And my wife's 140Kmile '02 Forry . . . But this is beside the point.

I have no particular issues with the AWD clutch wearing out, these
things do happen. But when I go to the dealership looking for info and
parts to repair it, and am told that it "Is not considered a
serviceable part", and I will "have to replace the entire
transmission." . . . Well then.

Blatantly planned obsolescence from where I sit; who is gonna spend
$3,500+ to fix a $6,000 car? Not this boy in any event.

And maybe the problem is limited to certain model years production
runs; I couldn't say, but I _have_ heard of several instances of the
clutch pack in automatic transmissions failing, and at least one other
instance of it failing in an MT car, specifically another older
Forester.

Steve, you're the subaru shop guy? Have you actually purchased a
replacement clutch pack from Subaru? I don't suppose you recall any
details, year, model, and particularly, a part number? I don't really
have a whole lot of confidence in the local dealership, but they are
the only game in town. and none of the on-line stores had anything
like that listed. I'd sure be happier if I knew I could get repair
parts if/when the time comes.

ByeBye! S.


Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

 

[Chico]

My 2003 OBS 5spd had torque bind at about 150k kms. Replaced clutch
pack for something like $1600. All is well since, now at close to
200k kms.

I was told that driving it with torque bind could ruin the
transmission, so I did not delay.

 

[nobody >]

Hi All!

I have no particular issues with the AWD clutch wearing out, these
things do happen. But when I go to the dealership looking for info and
parts to repair it, and am told that it "Is not considered a
serviceable part", and I will "have to replace the entire
transmission." . . . Well then.

Steve, from discussions with other Soobie owners (and from personal
experience with my wife's '97 Outback Sport (Imprezza)), it appears that
replacing the automatic transmission (with a "factory reconditioned"
unit) is a standard Subaru USA tactic. The service manager at the dealer
said to try some independent transmission shops but couldn't recommend
one by policy.

Dealer quote was $5300 on the 97.
I already knew of a good shop, the quote was $2400 or less unless the
case was "grenaded". The bill was $2100, new clutches and bands etc.

The local Soobie specialty shop, Smart Subaru, doesn't do auto
transmissions, but they said that was about going rate when they farmed
out AT jobs to other shops.

 

[S.Hansen]

Steve, from discussions with other Soobie owners (and from personal
experience with my wife's '97 Outback Sport (Imprezza)), it appears that
replacing the automatic transmission (with a "factory reconditioned" unit)
is a standard Subaru USA tactic. The service manager at the dealer said to
try some independent transmission shops but couldn't recommend one by
policy.

Dealer quote was $5300 on the 97.
I already knew of a good shop, the quote was $2400 or less unless the case
was "grenaded". The bill was $2100, new clutches and bands etc.

The local Soobie specialty shop, Smart Subaru, doesn't do auto
transmissions, but they said that was about going rate when they farmed
out AT jobs to other shops.

I went to several transmissions schools where we disassembled the 4 speed
auto, 5 speed auto, and 2 manual's I think. Now mind you, going to this
school doesn't make me qualified to repair a transmission. I just saw how
they were put together.
How a shop addresses a transmission issue depends on the level of competence
of the shop. If you have no one in the shop who can accurately diag and
repair a transmission, you don't want to sell that service, so you sell
transmissions . We rebuild most manual's and repair some auto's. this is
done by the techs that have a lot more time on Subies than I.
The class I went to had a tech from a Seattle shop that did auto's all the
time. 3/4 of the problem with auto's is knowing how to diag them. This guy
was awesome. the pieces were flying out of the transmission so fast it
scared me. He does all transmissions problems at his shop and he knows what
he is doing. I learned more from him. IE if a transmission had a certain
shift problem, he would know that the clutch pack here has a bad seal and
only repair that problem.
I have no problem with someone going to a transmission shop- what is inside
a subie transmission isn't classified. 2100 is a great price to fix any
transmission.
Steve

 

[S.Hansen]

Hi All!



C'mon spamTHIS, the car has nearly new tires, and I replaced _both_
front axles before swapping the tranny. Been there, done that. In
fact, I had a hard time believing that the tranny could be at fault,
but the (~90K miles on it) replacement transmission fixed the problem.
For now.

I too have owned numerous AWD Soobies, some with serious mileage:

A '91 Legacy Turbo sedan that had 170K or so with no issues while I
owned it.
An '02 WRX. that I didn't really like (crummy mileage, sluggish turbo,
incurable understeer ), and so sold it at about 25K.
A '96 Legacy sedan (my wife's) with an AT. A bit over 160K with no
serious issues.
A '90 Legacy wagon with close to 300K when I sold it, but I replaced
the tranny on it at about 230K for a different reason; it wouldn't
stay in 4th gear. Should've kept that car, tho; it was a good'un.
A fairly low mileage '95 Impreza Wagon that I bought with a bad AT
(hydraulic pump failure), fixed and sold.
My current DD, a '99 Forester with 115K. I love the car, and am
driving it today, but seriously considering craigs-listing it before
it, too has problems.
And my wife's 140Kmile '02 Forry . . . But this is beside the point.

I have no particular issues with the AWD clutch wearing out, these
things do happen. But when I go to the dealership looking for info and
parts to repair it, and am told that it "Is not considered a
serviceable part", and I will "have to replace the entire
transmission." . . . Well then.

Blatantly planned obsolescence from where I sit; who is gonna spend
$3,500+ to fix a $6,000 car? Not this boy in any event.

And maybe the problem is limited to certain model years production
runs; I couldn't say, but I _have_ heard of several instances of the
clutch pack in automatic transmissions failing, and at least one other
instance of it failing in an MT car, specifically another older
Forester.

Steve, you're the subaru shop guy? Have you actually purchased a
replacement clutch pack from Subaru? I don't suppose you recall any
details, year, model, and particularly, a part number? I don't really
have a whole lot of confidence in the local dealership, but they are
the only game in town. and none of the on-line stores had anything
like that listed. I'd sure be happier if I knew I could get repair
parts if/when the time comes.

ByeBye! S.


Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

I've replaced one clutch pack, and it was on a manual transmission. (don't
remember the specifics) the part is available.
I think the real issue with the shop and not the Subaru

 

[johninky]

Found this on another Subaru forum this morning. Another owner has
the same failure.

Hi, I am wondering just how difficult it would be to change my 2000
Subaru Outback Limited Wagon 2.5L from an AWD to a front wheel drive?
I have a small shop (including lift) but I have never taken this
manual 5 speed transmission out nor do I know much about this
particular unit. All indications are that the VISCOUS coupler is shot.
When I bought the car, I had need for the AWD on top of a mountain but
have since moved to the flat lands and do not really need the AWD. My
feeling is if I remove the drive line from the back of the
transmission to the jackpot (Differnatial) or and perhaps take off the
modual rear of the transmission and remove the guts (VISCOUS coupler)
and replace the housing, affectively disconnecting the back wheels
from the drive front wheels. Not sure just how this will work or what
my approach should be and hoping someone there has gone before me in
doing this kind of thing?

 

[XR650L_Dave]

Found this on another Subaru forum this morning.  Another owner has
the same failure.

Hi, I am wondering just how difficult it would be to change my 2000
Subaru Outback Limited Wagon 2.5L from an AWD to a front wheel drive?
I have a small shop (including lift) but I have never taken this
manual 5 speed transmission out nor do I know much about this
particular unit. All indications are that the VISCOUS coupler is shot.
When I bought the car, I had need for the AWD on top of a mountain but
have since moved to the flat lands and do not really need the AWD. My
feeling is if I remove the drive line from the back of the
transmission to the jackpot (Differnatial) or and perhaps take off the
modual rear of the transmission and remove the guts (VISCOUS coupler)
and replace the housing, affectively disconnecting the back wheels
from the drive front wheels. Not sure just how this will work or what
my approach should be and hoping someone there has gone before me in
doing this kind of thing?

It really wouldn't buy you much, if anything.

Minimal weight removal, almost no increase in gas mileage, and the
front drivetrain would wear out more quickly.

Dave

 

[XR650L_Dave]

Hi All!




C'mon spamTHIS, the car has nearly new tires, and I replaced _both_
front axles before swapping the tranny. Been there, done that. In
fact, I had a hard time believing that the tranny could be at fault,
but the (~90K miles on it) replacement transmission fixed the problem.
For now.

I too have owned numerous AWD Soobies, some with serious mileage:

A '91 Legacy Turbo sedan that had 170K or so with no issues while I
owned it.
An '02 WRX. that I didn't really like (crummy mileage, sluggish turbo,
incurable understeer ), and so sold it at about 25K.
A '96 Legacy sedan (my wife's) with an AT. A bit over 160K with no
serious issues.
A '90 Legacy wagon with close to 300K when I sold it, but I replaced
the tranny on it at about 230K for a different reason; it wouldn't
stay in 4th gear. Should've kept that car, tho; it was a good'un.
A fairly low mileage '95 Impreza Wagon that I bought with a bad AT
(hydraulic pump failure), fixed and sold.
My current DD, a '99 Forester with 115K. I love the car, and am
driving it today, but seriously considering craigs-listing it before
it, too has problems.
And my wife's 140Kmile '02 Forry . . . But this is beside the point.

I have no particular issues with the AWD clutch wearing out, these
things do happen. But when I go to the dealership looking for info and
parts to repair it, and am told that it "Is not considered a
serviceable part", and I will "have to replace the entire
transmission." . . . Well then.

Blatantly planned obsolescence from where I sit; who is gonna spend
$3,500+ to fix a $6,000 car? Not this boy in any event.

And maybe the problem is limited to certain model years production
runs; I couldn't say, but I _have_ heard of several instances of the
clutch pack in automatic transmissions failing, and at least one other
instance of it failing in an MT car, specifically another older
Forester.

Steve, you're the subaru shop guy? Have you actually purchased a
replacement clutch pack from Subaru? I don't suppose you recall any
details, year, model, and particularly, a part number? I don't really
have a whole lot of confidence in the local dealership, but they are
the only game in town. and none of the on-line stores had anything
like that listed. I'd sure be happier if I knew I could get repair
parts if/when the time comes.

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

It indeed sucks the dealer lied to you, but that's what it amounts to.


Dave

 

[S]

Hi Dave!

Yea, kinda looks like that, doesn't it. Heuberger Motors in Colorado
Springs. 'Nuff said.

I'm gonna chase this around some more, and will post my findings.

I owned an XR600 for years. Great bike; my buddy still has it, tho I
don't think he's ridden it lately. Still have my XR200, but, alas it
hasn't had much recent attention either. They tell me that scooters
cry at night when they're not being ridden ;-)

ByeBye! S.

It indeed sucks the dealer lied to you, but that's what it amounts to.


Dave

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

 

[Ben Jammin]

I don't really
have a whole lot of confidence in the local dealership, but they are
the only game in town. and none of the on-line stores had anything
like that listed. I'd sure be happier if I knew I could get repair
parts if/when the time comes.

Hi, Steve;

Living in Boulder, I've purchased four new Sub-burros at Flatirons
Subaru over 20 years (my wife has purchased one) and I've never been
disappointed with their sales or service. Having said that, I switch to
Super Rupair for service after the new-car warranties expire. I
estimate Super Rupair has provided service for my cars over 500,000
miles of driving; I've never been dissastified and I believe their
prices are reasonable. I also recommend Super Rupair's used cars to
friends looking for a good used Subie.

I have no affiliation with Super Rupair; I'm simply a satisfied customer.

Ciao,

Ben

 

[Gilbert Smith]

Hi All!

Two words: Torque Bind

Inside of your AWD transmission is a clutch pack which allows the rear
drive to "slip" a bit during tight turns and such, thus eliminating
the klunk-klunk-klunk noise/sensation (torque bind) you would get
otherwise.

Fine and dandy, but what do you do when this clutch begins to wear
out?

Sadly, as far as I can determine, you buy a new transmission; $3,500
for a manual box, and (gasp) $5,500 for the automatic version.

I replaced the manual transmission in my wife's '02 Forry (140K miles)
last weekend for this very reason. Fortunately, I was able to locate a
reasonably low milage specimen at a local salvage yard, but what
happens a year or two down the road when _all_ of these cars have
accumulated enough milage for the AWD clutch to be questionable? Gonna
be real tough to find a good used one, I can guarantee that!

The next time I have a spare "round-tuit", I plan to pull the bad
tranny apart to see how difficult it is to extract the AWD clutch, and
also to see if there are repair/refurbish options available thru a
machine shop. I will post my findings when I do, but meanwhile, I must
say that this makes it unlikely that I will purchase another AWD
Subaru. (And this from a looooong time Subaru advocate.)

My old 4X4 GL wagon looks better by the day

Any comments on this more than welcome!

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

I have an 05 Forester auto with exactly these symptoms, and the main
dealer has told me it needs a new rear diff. Only 21k miles too.

I even told them where the fault must be, but sadly they are clueless.
I am tempted to chuck the Sale of Goods Act at them.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

I have an 05 Forester auto with exactly these symptoms, and the main
dealer has told me it needs a new rear diff. Only 21k miles too.

I even told them where the fault must be, but sadly they are clueless.
I am tempted to chuck the Sale of Goods Act at them.

Sometimes other problems can simulate torque bind. I've read of people
having 'frozen' u-joints that cause the jerking sensation.

 

[Dominic Richens]

I've had torque bind problems on my 95 Legacy 5MT. They initially told me
they'd have to drop the transmission and replace the fluid coupling in the
centre differential - 900$ part, about 4 hours labour. If I just left it,
it would eventually melt and I'd still have an AWD vehicle, only with an
open centre differential. I should also expect to replace the half-shafts
more often due to added stress.

Luckily I also needed new tires, so I did that first and lo and behold the
torque bind went away never to be seen again!!