replace engine coolant

V

VB.NET

I have a 2002 Impreza WRX. i see in my maintainance manual that i should
replace the engine coolant every 30,000 miles. I'm at 50k and must confess
i still haven't done this. Is this a do it yourself task?
 
VB.NET said:
I have a 2002 Impreza WRX. i see in my maintainance manual that i should
replace the engine coolant every 30,000 miles. I'm at 50k and must confess
i still haven't done this. Is this a do it yourself task?


Does your sewage facility (wastewater plant) permit dumping of coolant into
their system? How are you going to flush your system? Just opening the
petcock and removing the radiator cap won't drain it all into a pan
underneath, so presumably you will be attaching a tee into the hose to
backflush by attaching a garden hose and will be pushing lots of water
through the engine while it is running and out the radiator cap opening.
Where are you going to collect all that polluted water? If you just let it
run down the street, you might find your neighbor suing you for the death of
their dog that lapped it up (one teaspoon is enough to kill a dog) plus you
could get cited for spewing the pollutant into the drain sewers (which empty
into the river without going through the sewage plant).

You need to check if your muncipality's sewage treatment system can handle
ethylene glycol. Some do, many don't. By the time it reaches their plant,
the concentration and toxicity has been reduced to levels that they might be
able to handle (but not obviously if everyone flushed on the same day);
however, there are other toxic components in the flushed coolant, like lead.
So you would need to run another garden hose back to your house to dump the
polluted water back into the sewage system (and not a storm water system).
You are not allowed to simply dump it on the ground or into the storm sewers
as that will pollute ground water and poses a health hazard to everything.

http://www.misterfixit.com/antifrez.htm
http://www.epinions.com/auto-review-2E92-2A16CCF7-3A05CD56-prod3

If your sewage facility declares that thou shalt not flush coolant into
their system, are you going to collect a barrelful of polluted water from
the backflush to then haul away to dispose of properly? If you watch the
shop do the flush, they are actually retrieving the coolant to recycle it;
see http://www.epa.gov/msw/antifree.htm. Are you going to buy one of those
coolant recycling machines? If you take it back (and loads of it from a
backflush) to a service station for recycling, they may charge a fee. If
you take it to your municipality's drop-off site, they probably charge a fee
for disposal of hazardous materials. With the cost of the coolant, the fees
for disposing of it, the hassle of transporting it for disposal, or having
to check to see if you allowed to flush it down to your wastewater treatment
facility (and because you are polluting rather than recycling by disposing
that way), seems like having the shop do it is not much more expensive, it
is safer, and it is far less hassle. If you were doing flushes in bulk then
the cost difference might be significant, but for one flush every couple of
years it doesn't seem worth doing it yourself.

You need to know the laws that apply to your locality. For example and for
me, see http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/115A/916.html. Note
section 3(b). Section 3(c) lets me dump it in the municipal wastewater
treatment system (i.e., sewer) but still requires you check with them
separately. The state says it is okay but one city's wastewater plant says
No while another says Yes. Realize that draining through the petcock (with
the radiator cap removed) does NOT drain the coolant from the engine. The
"rinsing" procedure described at
http://www.peakantifreeze.com/whychange2.html neglects all the coolant that
is sitting in your engine nor does it clean the system but just drains [a
portion of] it and replaces [a portion of] the fluid. If all you want to do
is "energize" your coolant once a year before winter comes then this
"rinsing" procedure is okay, and using a pre-flush additive might help.

I would've done my own flush except that trying to connect a garden hose to
a tube protruding from the radiator cap opening (the water comes in through
a backflush tee in a hose and exits out the radiator cap hole rather than
down throught petcock) resulted in lots of leakage from the tube which just
press fits into the hole (I don't have the tool that will seal into the hole
that will keep a watertight fit under pressure). I didn't have a drain hole
in my garage that went back into the sewer system, and running a couple of
garden hoses connected together to go send it back to the kitchen sink or
basement floor drain was too much of a hassle. You could use the petcock to
get rid of most of the concentrated coolant but, I think, that only drains
what is in the radiator and hoses and not what is in the engine block, so
you will still need to backflush and that results in lots of polluted water
to get rid of. For $40 (on a coupon deal), I'd rather let someone else get
underneath, get dirty, and have to handle the flushed out polluted water.
If I had a drain in my garage to the sewer system, maybe I'd do it myself.

If you still decide to go ahead with your own flush (or rinse), make sure to
use distilled water to mix with the new coolant. Don't use tap water.
 
I have a 2002 Impreza WRX. i see in my maintainance manual that i should
replace the engine coolant every 30,000 miles. I'm at 50k and must confess
i still haven't done this. Is this a do it yourself task?
You can do it yourself, if you have the time and a place to work along
with basic tools. It isn't necessary to flush the system unless the
coolant is contaminated or very discolored, otherwise a drain and
refill will suffice. On the 02 it's very important to follow the
correct procedure when refilling the system to minimize and remove any
trapped air in the system or it can overheat. You can find information
on doing this by reading the forums at www.nasioc.com and
www.scoobymods.com
 
Use the Factory coolant or G05 from PepBoys. In addition; adding the
Subaru "coolant conditioner" is a recommended must to assure no
coolant weeping issues. The conditioner is about -5 dollars and for my
2000 Forester it increased the warranty to 8 years/100,000 miles but,
not sure about the 2002 models so check with www.subaru.com and ask
the question.
 
I changed my '98 Forester's without problem although it was somewhat
messy.
But, after reading about head gasket problems due to trapped air, I'll
be having the dealer do it on my '03, just to be on the safe side.

I personally think the hazards of waste ethylene glycol are way
overstated. It is readily biodegradable and as long as you don't leave
puddles for dogs to lick, should be no problem.

Frank
 
Frank said:
I changed my '98 Forester's without problem although it was somewhat
messy.
But, after reading about head gasket problems due to trapped air, I'll
be having the dealer do it on my '03, just to be on the safe side.

I personally think the hazards of waste ethylene glycol are way
overstated. It is readily biodegradable and as long as you don't leave
puddles for dogs to lick, should be no problem.

Frank
Unless maybe you are going to spill it in the quantities shown on the cover
of http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/guide/airport/airport.pdf <8^P

It is a good idea to keep it away from large amounts of water (no storm
drains!) so it has a better chance to biodegrade, and used antifreeze from
older vehicles with soldered radiators and heater cores may have
contamination by heavy metals to the extent it would be hazardous waste -
but the EPA regards that as rare.
http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/hazwaste/id/antifrez/

As far as microorganisms know ethylene glycol is just another carbohydrate,
more digestable than Twinkies. The EPA notes that glycol antifreeze
recycling in the US is barely 12%, but at that it still isn't a hot-button
issue.

Mike
 
Frank said:
I changed my '98 Forester's without problem although it was somewhat
messy.
But, after reading about head gasket problems due to trapped air, I'll
be having the dealer do it on my '03, just to be on the safe side.

I personally think the hazards of waste ethylene glycol are way
overstated. It is readily biodegradable and as long as you don't leave
puddles for dogs to lick, should be no problem.

Frank


Yeah, obviously you don't have any dogs or you lost them all because of your
sloppy handling of toxic waste. Dogs will lap up the sweet tasting coolant
or even eat dirt contaminated with it. Remember that dogs are not picky
eaters. They'll eat turds, vomit, and other disgusting stuff. Toxicity is
NOT the same for all animals. As I recall, ethylene glycol is not rated as
toxic in its normal concentration. It is how it is metabolized in animals
to to increase its toxicity to extremely high levels that determines the
effects of its ingestion. For cats, ethylene glycol poisoning affects the
nervous system and causes severe kidney failure with almost complete
cessation of urine output. Cats are even more susceptible than dogs (1.5ml
per kilogram for cats, 5ml per kilogram for dogs). For dogs, they show
non-specific symptoms of kidney failure like loss of appetite, lethargy, and
vomiting two to three days after ingestion and treatment is often futile
after severe kidney failure has developed. Humans can tolerate more
ingested cooland than other animals, like dogs. 100ml (~3-4 ounces) is
lethal for humans, and obviously that is 67 times what kills cats and 20
times what kills dogs. I haven't checked how it affects birds, worms, or
other animal or plant life but it seems to kill everything that consumes it.
Leave out the drain pan with coolant and you'll find lots of dead bugs in
it. It is an old trick of a feuding neighbor to poison their neighbor's pet
using engine coolant.

When poured into the storm sewers or into the ground, there is little that
will break it down by the time it reaches water that gets used for
consumption. The effluence in wastewater sewers (i.e., public sewage
system) will break it down by the time it reaches the treatment plant, but
some plants don't want to handle it at all. You can argue all you want but
when you get cited and fined for hazardous waste pollution then you are the
one that looks like the idiot. Since it tastes sweet, also expect jail time
or, at least, manslaughter charges when the neighborhood kid dies from
drinking it.

Also, we aren't talking about fresh new coolant here. We are talking about
*used* coolant which contains lead and other heavy metals along with
additives to reduce corrosion, cavitation, buffer the acidity, and raise the
boiling point. Common additives are: nitrates (corrosion inhibitors,
buffers), silicates (corrosion inhibitors, especially for aluminum
radiators), carboxylates (buffers, corrosion inhibitors), and borates
(buffers). POLYethylene glycol (PEG) is used to thicken shampoo and
cosmetics. It can also be attached to other molecules via a process called
pegylation. When pegylated to medicinal drugs, it can alter their
distribution in the body, metabolism, and excretion. Pegylation can also
mask certain drugs, such as interferon, from the immune system, preventing
their rejection. However, again, this is obviously not the same formulation
as used for *new* engine coolant, and *used* engine coolant has pollutants
that fresh coolant doesn't have. Engine coolant is toxic.

The OP is not asking how to dispose of fresh new coolant, nor would the OP
be disposing of just ethylene glycol. The OP would be disposing of USED
*coolant* and that is not just used ethylene glycol. Just because engine
coolant's primary component is ethylene glycol doesn't mean it is the only
component.

Go ahead and swallow a quarter cup of *used* engine coolant. If we don't
see you post again, we'll know why.
 
Michael Pardee said:
in message
Unless maybe you are going to spill it in the quantities shown on the
cover of http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/guide/airport/airport.pdf

There are responsible methods of disposing or recycling deicer and there are
irresponsible methods of disposal. Just because it is allowed legally via
permit doesn't mean it is appropriate. Just because it is legal doesn't
make it right.

Plus, as you mentioned, we are talking about USED coolant, not fresh new
coolant, plus even fresh new coolant is NOT just ethylene glycol (i.e.,
there are additives).
 
I'm tempted to flame you but you'd like that.
Hate to think that people like you drive Subaru's ;)
Frank
BTW I'm an organic chemist and not particularly impressed with your
response.
 
Frank said:
I'm tempted to flame you but you'd like that.
Hate to think that people like you drive Subaru's ;)
Frank
BTW I'm an organic chemist and not particularly impressed with your
response.
Frank - I have MS in theoretical physics but in my particular situation
- education degree(s) is irrelevant: we have a water well and septic in
our house :)
 
Frank said:
I'm tempted to flame you but you'd like that.
Hate to think that people like you drive Subaru's ;)
Frank
BTW I'm an organic chemist and not particularly impressed with your
response.


Thankfully you don't work in a hospital or for a veterinary clinic. I could
just see you while carrying your claimed credentials declaring that the
victim should not be dying despite the poisoning. I, for one, am glad you
work in a lab instead of treating humans or animals.

http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/33524/newsDate/18-Nov-2005/story.htm

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=15493
 
Me too - well and septic. Septic should readily take care of used
antifreeze.
I have a lot of experience with toxicology and regulatory affairs and
hate to see the chemophobia that our friend here displays. There are
far more household materials or fluids that go into our cars that are
more toxic. Ethylene glycol or the older antifreeze, methanol, do not
even fall under the toxic definition given by OSHA.
 
Vanguard said:
There are responsible methods of disposing or recycling deicer and there
are irresponsible methods of disposal. Just because it is allowed
legally via permit doesn't mean it is appropriate. Just because it is
legal doesn't make it right.

My county has a couple of household hazardous waste collection
centers. Up to 20 gallons (or equivalent solid weight) of almost
anything at a time. They even take asbestos. They come out in
tyvek hazmat suits. I'm guessing it's only for show, since
they're not wearing masks.
Plus, as you mentioned, we are talking about USED coolant, not fresh new
coolant, plus even fresh new coolant is NOT just ethylene glycol (i.e.,
there are additives).

I once asked my city utility if the sewage system coule take
antifreeze. I was told it wasn't allowed, but they can handle
small amounts of almost anything. The real problem is if
everyone does it.
 
Vanguard said:
Thankfully you don't work in a hospital or for a veterinary clinic. I
could just see you while carrying your claimed credentials declaring
that the victim should not be dying despite the poisoning. I, for one,
am glad you work in a lab instead of treating humans or animals.

Here was his response:

"It is readily biodegradable and as long as you don't leave
puddles for dogs to lick, should be no problem."

Seems extremely reasonable to me. Makes me wonder why a
bittering agent isn't added to coolant to make it unpleasant
if there are puddles. I remember seeing a car leaving
about a quart of coolant on the ground. Bittering agents
are used in pressurized air cannisters to try to prevent
intentional inhalation.
 
y_p_w said:
Makes me wonder why a
bittering agent isn't added to coolant to make it unpleasant
if there are puddles. I remember seeing a car leaving
about a quart of coolant on the ground. Bittering agents
are used in pressurized air cannisters to try to prevent
intentional inhalation.

It looks like a bill to do just that is still floating around the senate:
http://tinyurl.com/rff7x It seems like a no-brainer as long as a compatible
agent is used, and that shouldn't be to hard to come up with.

BTW - something that was only recently discovered and not widely known is
that grapes and raisins are toxic to dogs, at least to some breeds, causing
kidney failure. http://www.aspca.org/site/DocServer/grapes.pdf?docID=189 I
realize this is very off-topic but maybe it will save a pooch or two....

Mike
 
VB.NET said:
I have a 2002 Impreza WRX. i see in my maintainance manual that i should
replace the engine coolant every 30,000 miles. I'm at 50k and must confess
i still haven't done this. Is this a do it yourself task?

Since it only has to be done at 30k, and you are probably fine at 50k, why
not let a shop do it instead of wondering about how toxic it is and how to
dispose of it. How much can it cost? And you won't be driving around with
used coolant wondering what to do with it. They can also flush the system
and pressurize it to check it.
 
Michael said:
It looks like a bill to do just that is still floating around the senate:
http://tinyurl.com/rff7x It seems like a no-brainer as long as a compatible
agent is used, and that shouldn't be to hard to come up with.

The bill you cited specifies denatonium benzoate. I have some
methanol based windshield washer fluid that contains the stuff
(trademarked Bitrex).

All the info I've seen on ethylene glycol indicates that the
toxic effects are the same as alcohol poisoning. Data seems
to indicate that it's less toxic than ethanol, which I consume
(in moderation of course). However - there is lead and copper
in used coolant, which can't be all that healthy.
 
Sheldon said:
Since it only has to be done at 30k, and you are probably fine at 50k, why
not let a shop do it instead of wondering about how toxic it is and how to
dispose of it. How much can it cost? And you won't be driving around
with used coolant wondering what to do with it. They can also flush the
system and pressurize it to check it.

Yeah, that's what i decided to do. Too bad i incited a rather lengthy and
annoying argument about coolant toxicity.
 
Make sure that the person doing the coolant change is thoroughly
familiar with the procedure for the WRX as there is some technique
involved in bleeding air from the system. In addition be sure to add
the OEM cooling system conditioner.
 

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