QUESTION - need to talk about WRX synchros again

[BD]

Hey, all.

I have an 02 WRX Wagon, with about 29,000 miles.

Awhile ago, there was a thread on the dubious quality of WRX synchros.

I occasionally 'beat' the synchros, causing the shifter to slam home
before the tranny has synched up.

This does not happen often, but I want to deal with it before the
powertrain warranty expires.

Oh - I presume the synchros are considered part of the powertrain??

So what I'd like to ask is how I can replicate this symptom? I don't
find that it occurs frequently enough for me to be able to engineer the
circumstances at will. Sometimes, it's after I pull out of reverse,
stop, and go into 1st. Sometimes, it's after I've been sitting at a
light with the clutch disengaged.

If I could make it happen when I wanted it to happen, it would be
easier to 'prove' at the dealer. Does anyone have any tips, or
circumstances under which this is more likely to occur?

Also - I fully expect to face the 'you've been abusing it' argument
from the dealer, so I will want to have all the precedents, reports,
service notifications I can find, before I go in. I do have a link to a
Consumer Reports discussion on the topic, as well as stuff on the
nasioc forums. But I don't expect anecdotal reports to persuade my
dealer.... ;-(

Last thing - any articles on what's _really_ happening here would help
me - I need to educate myself on the components of the transmission,
the bits that are wearing out/substandard, all that happy stuff. I have
stumbled upon one site which had some diagrams and such, but who knows
whether those would apply to WRX motors...

Thanks for all suggestions!

BD

 

[Jim Stewart]

Hey, all.

I have an 02 WRX Wagon, with about 29,000 miles.

Awhile ago, there was a thread on the dubious quality of WRX synchros.

I occasionally 'beat' the synchros, causing the shifter to slam home
before the tranny has synched up.

This does not happen often, but I want to deal with it before the
powertrain warranty expires.

Oh - I presume the synchros are considered part of the powertrain??

So what I'd like to ask is how I can replicate this symptom? I don't
find that it occurs frequently enough for me to be able to engineer the
circumstances at will. Sometimes, it's after I pull out of reverse,
stop, and go into 1st. Sometimes, it's after I've been sitting at a
light with the clutch disengaged.

If I could make it happen when I wanted it to happen, it would be
easier to 'prove' at the dealer. Does anyone have any tips, or
circumstances under which this is more likely to occur?

Also - I fully expect to face the 'you've been abusing it' argument
from the dealer, so I will want to have all the precedents, reports,
service notifications I can find, before I go in. I do have a link to a
Consumer Reports discussion on the topic, as well as stuff on the
nasioc forums. But I don't expect anecdotal reports to persuade my
dealer.... ;-(

Last thing - any articles on what's _really_ happening here would help
me - I need to educate myself on the components of the transmission,
the bits that are wearing out/substandard, all that happy stuff. I have
stumbled upon one site which had some diagrams and such, but who knows
whether those would apply to WRX motors...

Let me make sure I understand.

You occasionally abuse your transmission
and you want help from us so that you
can convince your dealer that he should
rebuild it under warranty. Am I missing
something here?

 

[BD]

Am I missing something here?

Yes - the idea that I abuse it. I do not.

In re-reading my post, I see where I may have given that impression.
When I say I 'beat' the synchros, that is not me saying I intentionally
hammer them. 'Beating the synchros' is a phrase which I got from this
newsgroup, to describe the symptom wherein the shifter is allowed into
gear before the synchros have done their job.

If I had said 'beating ON' the synchros, that would be pretty obvious.
But no, this is not what I'm saying.

I've had the car for just under 5 years (drivetrain warranty is up at
the end of October). I occasionally wind it up, as would any WRX owner,
but I do not abuse the clutch, nor the tranny. One day, I was shifting
into first, from either a stop or from backing out, using the same
amount of force I'd normally use to shift any gear, and it slid right
in before the transmission had matched speed.

I've also on my 4th clutch - the first one was giving cold shudder all
the time, and I researched enough to find the service notification on
that. The dealer agreed to replace that one because of the service note
on it, and because I could easily demonstrate the problem. The
replacement one left me stranded, after the throw bearing failed while
I was on the highway - hadn't even put 60 miles on that clutch. I had
that one replaced, and this one resulted in odd resonance at certain
RPMs, which were easily demonstrated to the dealer.

I've since done enough research for me to conclude that the
clutch/tranny in Imprezas is a rather frequent weak link - at least in
N.American built ones.

I've read of enough reports of drivers being blamed for the occasional
chipped gear, and having warranty service denied, when it was in fact
(from what I have read) substandard equipment that is the causal
factor.

I've been trying to learn how to heel/toe when I gear down, to give a
bit of throttle when I go down into 1st. This does seem to be useful.

But, I am not convinced that, even if I learn to gingerly match revs
while gearing down, I won't be in the occasional position of having to
get into 1st gear NOW, and having it smash into gear because of
inadequate synchros.

Hope that clarifies things.

BD

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Yes - the idea that I abuse it. I do not.

In re-reading my post, I see where I may have given that impression.
When I say I 'beat' the synchros, that is not me saying I intentionally
hammer them. 'Beating the synchros' is a phrase which I got from this
newsgroup, to describe the symptom wherein the shifter is allowed into
gear before the synchros have done their job.

If I had said 'beating ON' the synchros, that would be pretty obvious.
But no, this is not what I'm saying.

I've had the car for just under 5 years (drivetrain warranty is up at
the end of October). I occasionally wind it up, as would any WRX owner,
but I do not abuse the clutch, nor the tranny. One day, I was shifting
into first, from either a stop or from backing out, using the same
amount of force I'd normally use to shift any gear, and it slid right
in before the transmission had matched speed.

I've also on my 4th clutch - the first one was giving cold shudder all
the time, and I researched enough to find the service notification on
that. The dealer agreed to replace that one because of the service note
on it, and because I could easily demonstrate the problem. The
replacement one left me stranded, after the throw bearing failed while
I was on the highway - hadn't even put 60 miles on that clutch. I had
that one replaced, and this one resulted in odd resonance at certain
RPMs, which were easily demonstrated to the dealer.

I've since done enough research for me to conclude that the
clutch/tranny in Imprezas is a rather frequent weak link - at least in
N.American built ones.

I've read of enough reports of drivers being blamed for the occasional
chipped gear, and having warranty service denied, when it was in fact
(from what I have read) substandard equipment that is the causal
factor.

I've been trying to learn how to heel/toe when I gear down, to give a
bit of throttle when I go down into 1st. This does seem to be useful.

But, I am not convinced that, even if I learn to gingerly match revs
while gearing down, I won't be in the occasional position of having to
get into 1st gear NOW, and having it smash into gear because of
inadequate synchros.

Hope that clarifies things.

BD

There may be some aftermarket gear oil with different 'friction
modifiers' that could help - maybe the tranny or motorsports threads at
www.nasioc.com could help. basically, you need more friction to get the
synchros spinning IIRC and some high end/synthetic oils are TOO
slippery. Also, a stainless braided clutch line could POSSIBLY help.

Carl

 

[BD]

There may be some aftermarket gear oil with different 'friction
modifiers' that could help - maybe the tranny or motorsports threads at
www.nasioc.com could help. basically, you need more friction to get the
synchros spinning IIRC and some high end/synthetic oils are TOO
slippery. Also, a stainless braided clutch line could POSSIBLY help.

Thanks, Carl. I do recall mention of a certain synthetic gear oil that
many people have had luck with. I'll go back and check.

But the symptom I'm experiencing is not _only_ that the gears aren't in
sync, but that the *whateverthehellitis* that puts resistance on the
shifter so you cannot put it into gear before it's ready - I thought
I'd read that it was some metal bar or rod - this thing isn't always
'there'. When this symptom occurs, the shifter just drops into gear
with the lightest of touches - the rod/bar/jigger/thingy which normally
presents resistance is just 'absent'. ...on very rare occasion.

Gotta love consistent behaviour when troubleshooting a problem, hm?

So I guess the sense here is that given that its as intermittent as it
is, there may not be anything wrong with the actual mechanism? I've
read discussions of which metals are used for the synchros, and the
fact that they can wear out early, etc.

Thanks!

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

Thanks, Carl. I do recall mention of a certain synthetic gear oil that
many people have had luck with. I'll go back and check.

But the symptom I'm experiencing is not _only_ that the gears aren't in
sync, but that the *whateverthehellitis* that puts resistance on the
shifter so you cannot put it into gear before it's ready - I thought
I'd read that it was some metal bar or rod - this thing isn't always
'there'. When this symptom occurs, the shifter just drops into gear
with the lightest of touches - the rod/bar/jigger/thingy which normally
presents resistance is just 'absent'. ...on very rare occasion.

Gotta love consistent behaviour when troubleshooting a problem, hm?

So I guess the sense here is that given that its as intermittent as it
is, there may not be anything wrong with the actual mechanism? I've
read discussions of which metals are used for the synchros, and the
fact that they can wear out early, etc.

Thanks!

I only know what I've read so I have'nt the experience that some here
do. My '06 seems very tight and 'notchy' but there have been changes
since your's so it isn't a fair comparison. A decent mod/upgrade for you
might be a shorter shifter and especially some Kartboy or other bushings
- at least you'd have an excuse to look and see if there is something
broken or worn out under there. A bad tranny mount might cause some
kinda misalignment too I guess.

good luck and get back to us if you find something OK?

Carl

 

[BD]

good luck and get back to us if you find something OK?

I will - thanks!

 

[Body Roll]

But the symptom I'm experiencing is not _only_ that the gears aren't in
sync, but that the *whateverthehellitis* that puts resistance on the
shifter so you cannot put it into gear before it's ready - I thought
I'd read that it was some metal bar or rod - this thing isn't always
'there'. When this symptom occurs, the shifter just drops into gear
with the lightest of touches - the rod/bar/jigger/thingy which normally
presents resistance is just 'absent'. ...on very rare occasion.

I suggest to read the entry in wikipedia on standard transmission and
advanced driving techniques. The lack of resistance you're describing
is when you're slowing down and going from 2nd into the 1st?
That's what wiki describes in one entry found from the article on
standard tranny.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

BD wrote:




I suggest to read the entry in wikipedia on standard transmission and
advanced driving techniques. The lack of resistance you're describing
is when you're slowing down and going from 2nd into the 1st?
That's what wiki describes in one entry found from the article on
standard tranny.

EXCELLENT point!
Likely the OP is experiencing a condition where the shaft and engine
rpms are equal such that the syncronizers are not required. This could
happen accelerating or - possibly, slowing down if the gas pedal is
tapped or you're slow releasing the gas (or the clutch in.gas off timing
is wrong) when downshifting.

Sorta like rev matching or double clutching to bypass synchronizer function.

If you feel like it really is a problem, make arrangements to drive a
different stick shift car and see if you can duplicate the phenomenon.
It is possible to shift without the clutch by careful rev matching and
slow gear selection.

carl

 

[BD]

The lack of resistance you're describing

is when you're slowing down and going from 2nd into the 1st?

That's one of 3 scenarios in which I've seen it happen:

1-slowing to a stop, going from 2nd to 1st;
2-pulling out in reverse, and then going quickly into 1st;
3-idling at a stop sign, with the clutch _not_ engaged, and then going
into 1st when the light goes green.

I'll review that wiki entry.

 

[BD]

It is possible to shift without the clutch by careful rev matching and
slow gear selection.

I am teaching myself to heel/toe when I use the brake; that helps.
Tapping the throttle at certain times also helps.

But it's the occasions when I need to move quickly when it stands to do
me the most harm - pulling out of a parallel park spot and taking off
into traffic requires that I be a bit assertive with shifting into 1st.
It's situations like these, when I don't necessarily have _time_ to
rev-match or gently ease the shifter into gear.

FWIW, my previous car was a '91 Tercel, with 210000 km on it when I
sold it, and I _never_ had any issues like this. I believe the clutch
was still original; certainly the tranny was.

I really shouldn't have to re-learn how to shift here, should I? Or is
this just the occasional reqiurement for having a higher-performance
car?

What _really_ bugs me is that this has not been this way from the
get-go. It's a fairly recent development.

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

That's one of 3 scenarios in which I've seen it happen:

1-slowing to a stop, going from 2nd to 1st;
2-pulling out in reverse, and then going quickly into 1st;
3-idling at a stop sign, with the clutch _not_ engaged, and then going
into 1st when the light goes green.

I'll review that wiki entry.

I THINK 1st and reverse share a shaft so that one makes sense. In the
past, a '69 Datsun convertible I owned was very picky about going into
first from neutral/whatever and ,when stopped of course, I found
selecting reverse then selecting 1st would help.

The reason Subaru changed the 1st gear s'nizers(and other stuff) in the
MY'06 5MT was because it has been a 'less than ideal' tranny. I'd try
Redline or other gear oil, but likely nothing will solve the issue
completely. Of course, the may actually be some damage. IIRC there is a
magnet on the drain plug. Perhpas, if you upgrade the lubricant in your
tranny, inspecting the magnet for more than a normal amount of metallic
'fuzz' would tell you if further exploratory surgery was called for.

I dunno - maybe visit the tranny forum at www.nasioc.com .

Carl

 

[Body Roll]

I am teaching myself to heel/toe when I use the brake; that helps.
Tapping the throttle at certain times also helps.

But it's the occasions when I need to move quickly when it stands to do
me the most harm - pulling out of a parallel park spot and taking off
into traffic requires that I be a bit assertive with shifting into 1st.
It's situations like these, when I don't necessarily have _time_ to
rev-match or gently ease the shifter into gear.

I think people mentioned that this is called "beating the synchros".

FWIW, my previous car was a '91 Tercel, with 210000 km on it when I
sold it, and I _never_ had any issues like this. I believe the clutch
was still original; certainly the tranny was.

I had a friend who switched to an automatic after a toyolet tercel with
5sp.
He absolutely hated to shift on that P.O.S. Ironically, he got an
Accord
and probably would never know that he missed one of the best
standard transmissions on the market. I have a coworker who drives
a car with an auto because he learned to drive back home;
standard transmissions in the eastern european cars are P.O.S. and he
thinks he's not a good with shifting. Then I have another friend
whose favorite past time is teaching people to drive a stick (she hates
gold carts
with all her heart). She claims to have converted about a dozen people
so far.
Anyhow, I think shitty standard transmissions of the yore and the
present
are at least partly responsible for 99% of the american public of
driving
cars with automatics.

I really shouldn't have to re-learn how to shift here, should I? Or is
this just the occasional reqiurement for having a higher-performance
car?

No. It just happens that standard tranny was not a priority for Subaru.
At least on Impreza before MY06. Strange considering that unlike
the Detrua V6+auto boatmakers FHI sells a large percentage of cars
with a stick shift. Maybe about half? Most of WRXes these days anyway
unless some gullible people are buy limited trim.

What _really_ bugs me is that this has not been this way from the
get-go. It's a fairly recent development.

So what? You'd ride this tranny into the ground and hopefully
the transmission shop could find a rebuilt 6sp from STI for you.
Still cheaper than replacing the whole car. Especially if you also
live in a place with a huge sales tax.
Good luck shopping! (Hunting?)

 

[Dean G. Connell]

That's one of 3 scenarios in which I've seen it happen:

1-slowing to a stop, going from 2nd to 1st;
2-pulling out in reverse, and then going quickly into 1st;
3-idling at a stop sign, with the clutch _not_ engaged, and then going
into 1st when the light goes green.

I'll review that wiki entry.

I am on my second set of synchros. I have exactly the same problem you
describe. It doesn't require abuse of the car to have the problem. I had
my first set replaced at about 30k miles. I am now at 60k miles and having
the problem again. I have an extended warranty and will have the dealer
fix the problem again before it runs out. Be persistent. You'll find it
happens most in hot weather. This is the best time to demo the problem.
After a certain point, it will get so bad that even at a stop, shifting in
and out of gear will cause a clunk that the dealer can't ignore. Good
luck.

DGC