Overrevving on a stickshift?

[Yousuf Khan]

Now I've had my 2000 OBW w/ 5MT for several years now, and so I've
become very familiar with the rev-to-speedo relationships. For example,
at 100kph (60mph), in 5th gear, I expect to see around 3000rpm. Recently
however, I've seen the engine race upto 3500-4000 without shifting
gears, or accelerating, while just maintaining an existing speed.

This makes sense on an auto transmission where there is expected to be
some designed-in slippage due to the torque converter, but why should
there be such a race condition in a manual transmission when the clutch
is fully engaged? I would normally suspect that the clutch is slipping,
but there is no burning smell or squeal or anything like that. I asked
the dealership to take a look at it, and they couldn't reproduce it. The
problem seems to happen mainly when it's really cold outside, at least
-10°C or less. There's no error codes either. I might try to reproduce
it while I have a laptop graphing its OBDII port, but I think the
coldest days of winter are probably behind us now, so I might not be
able to reproduce it until next year.

Yousuf Khan

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

Now I've had my 2000 OBW w/ 5MT for several years now, and so I've
become very familiar with the rev-to-speedo relationships. For example,
at 100kph (60mph), in 5th gear, I expect to see around 3000rpm. Recently
however, I've seen the engine race upto 3500-4000 without shifting
gears, or accelerating, while just maintaining an existing speed.

This makes sense on an auto transmission where there is expected to be
some designed-in slippage due to the torque converter, but why should
there be such a race condition in a manual transmission when the clutch
is fully engaged? I would normally suspect that the clutch is slipping,
but there is no burning smell or squeal or anything like that. I asked
the dealership to take a look at it, and they couldn't reproduce it. The
problem seems to happen mainly when it's really cold outside, at least
-10°C or less. There's no error codes either. I might try to reproduce
it while I have a laptop graphing its OBDII port, but I think the
coldest days of winter are probably behind us now, so I might not be
able to reproduce it until next year.

        Yousuf Khan

Clutch is slipping - smell or no.

 

[johninky]

Good chance when you eventually have the clutch replaced oil will be
found on the disc. Could be from the engine or the transmission.

 

[weelliott]

It doesn't start smelling until you've been slipping it for a good
bit. I bet if you let it overrev up to 3500 or so at 60 mph for a
solid minute, then you'd probably be smelling it.

 

[S]

Hi Yousuf!

Now I've had my 2000 OBW w/ 5MT for several years now, and so I've
become very familiar with the rev-to-speedo relationships. For example,
at 100kph (60mph), in 5th gear, I expect to see around 3000rpm. Recently
however, I've seen the engine race upto 3500-4000 without shifting
gears, or accelerating, while just maintaining an existing speed.

This makes sense on an auto transmission where there is expected to be
some designed-in slippage due to the torque converter, but why should
there be such a race condition in a manual transmission when the clutch
is fully engaged? I would normally suspect that the clutch is slipping,
but there is no burning smell or squeal or anything like that. I asked
the dealership to take a look at it, and they couldn't reproduce it. The
problem seems to happen mainly when it's really cold outside, at least
-10°C or less. There's no error codes either. I might try to reproduce
it while I have a laptop graphing its OBDII port, but I think the
coldest days of winter are probably behind us now, so I might not be
able to reproduce it until next year.

As the guys have said, your clutch is goin' away. About the only thing
that might cause this to appear like it's worse in the cold would be
the lube where the throw-out bearing slides getting sticky and not
allowing a smooth release. Same end result, tho. I wish I had better
news for you, but once a clutch gets to this point, there isn't much
time left; probably the next time or two you drive it, you will be
walking home . . .

About the only thing I can offer is that if you take it _real_ easy,
and stick to back roads where the speeds don't exceed 3rd gear-ish,
you may be able to nurse it along for a little longer (or at least get
it home). If you feel it starting to slip, immediately back off;
slippage causes heat, which will just accelerate the failure. Carry
your cell phone.

A Subaru clutch job isn't terribly difficult, but cold weather makes
the chore unpleasant. If you don't want to plop down $500 or more to
pay someone to do it for you, you may want to park it and drive
something else until the weather gets warm.

Oh, and don't be tempted to buy a cheap-o ebay clutch; either go with
an OEM unit, or one of the Exedy performance ones. About twice the
cost, but far preferable to having to do the job _again_ in 6 months
or a year. Alas, I speak from sad experience on this one

ByeBye! S.
Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

 

[Yousuf Khan]

It doesn't start smelling until you've been slipping it for a good
bit. I bet if you let it overrev up to 3500 or so at 60 mph for a
solid minute, then you'd probably be smelling it.

No, usually when I notice the revs going up like that, I usually let off
the gas a bit and might even disengage the clutch, and then I'll try
resynchronizing again. After that, it usually behaves normally for the
rest of the way.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Yousuf Khan]

Okay guys, thanks for the info, it sounds like there is a consensus that
there really is a clutch problem here.

I just talked to the dealer, and he's quoting $795 just for the parts.
Then he's talking about $600 for the labour. Then I talked to a bunch of
other local shops, they are quoting much lower for the parts, around
$450 in most cases for the parts, and some $85-95 extra for re-machining
the flywheel. What are the opinions of aftermarket parts? Any brands I
should stay away from, or some that are really good?

Also the dealer believes that the reason it seems to happen more in the
bitter-cold is because the hydraulic fluid is cold and it doesn't adjust
as well in that environment until it heats up a bit, but he still
believes that the clutch is probably pretty thin right now because this
wouldn't have happened if there was enough material there, cold or no
cold. As I said, the problem is not occurring right now, it only
happened during the colder times, so I might have enough time to shop
around properly.

Yousuf Khan

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

Okay guys, thanks for the info, it sounds like there is a consensus that
there really is a clutch problem here.

I just talked to the dealer, and he's quoting $795 just for the parts.
Then he's talking about $600 for the labour. Then I talked to a bunch of
other local shops, they are quoting much lower for the parts, around
$450 in most cases for the parts, and some $85-95 extra for re-machining
the flywheel. What are the opinions of aftermarket parts? Any brands I
should stay away from, or some that are really good?

Also the dealer believes that the reason it seems to happen more in the
bitter-cold is because the hydraulic fluid is cold and it doesn't adjust
as well in that environment until it heats up a bit, but he still
believes that the clutch is probably pretty thin right now because this
wouldn't have happened if there was enough material there, cold or no
cold. As I said, the problem is not occurring right now, it only
happened during the colder times, so I might have enough time to shop
around properly.

   Yousuf Khan

At least ask the dealer to match on-line parts pricing, like from
Jamie at www.subarugenuineparts.com or other online place. I've had
luck on a coupla occasions with that.



good luck

 

[Yousuf Khan]

At least ask the dealer to match on-line parts pricing, like from
Jamie at www.subarugenuineparts.com or other online place. I've had
luck on a coupla occasions with that.

One of the reasons, that the dealer price is so high, I assume is
because they are talking about replacing the flywheel along with the
clutch, whereas the other places are just talking about re-machining the
flywheel. The dealer suggests that this is bad for the flywheel, but of
course he would suggest that. Opinions?

Yousuf Khan

 

[S]

Hi again, Yousuf, All!

One of the reasons, that the dealer price is so high, I assume is
because they are talking about replacing the flywheel along with the
clutch, whereas the other places are just talking about re-machining the
flywheel. The dealer suggests that this is bad for the flywheel, but of
course he would suggest that. Opinions?

As long as the flywheel surface is smooth and flat (straight edge
across, shouldn't be more'n maybe 10 mil out), I just clean it up with
a wire brush or roloc disk, and run with it.

That said, heat from the clutch plate slipping can easily temper the
surface, leaving hard spots. If you see a bluish discoloration on the
surface that doesn't clean up with a mild abrasive as above, probably
best to get another flywheel (I shop salvage whenever possible), or
have it turned. I know little about resurfacing flywheels, but I would
suspect that, like most things, there are right and wrong ways to go
about it. I'd stick with new or serviceable used to be safe.

I have installed the Exedy stage 1 clutch kit in both of our Forries
('99, and '02), and other than a bit higher pedal effort, they work
great, and have entirely eliminated the annoying chatter observed in
the OEM units. Centerforce is another proven winner. The el cheapo one
I put in mine originally didn't even have enough spring in the
pressure plate to get the pedal to come back off of the floor. I
wasted way too much time messin' with the hydraulics and pedal cage
("It _can't_ be the clutch; it's brand new" . . . classic denial, I
tell ya ;-) before resigning myself to spending $300 for the stage 1
clutch kit, and another weekend installing it. Poor man buys twice
they say.

Realize that servicing the clutch requires pulling the transmission
(probably the easiest way, if you have a hoist and tranny jack), or
the engine, so you might as well replace the engine rear main seal
while you're at it. Probably won't hurt to pop a new seal in the
transmission input shaft as well. Throw-out, and pilot bearings come
with the kit.

If the engine comes out, take the opportunity to replace the coolant
hoses and thermostat; if the tranny, replace the transmission rear
seal, and inspect the half shafts, drive shaft/ center bearing, and
lower ball joints.

Plenty of decent independent shops out there, and at least as far as a
clutch, there is nothing special the dealership can offer beyond
$pecial pricing. FWIW, I'm strictly an amateur wrench, but I do have a
car hoist, tranny jack, and decent hand tools. I'd imagine that actual
time-on-the-job for a Soobie clutch with no other complications (via
pulling the transmission, rather than the engine) is probably around 6
hours. 'Course I stop to drink beer, chat with the neighbor(s), go for
lunch, put air in the kid's bicycle tires, walk the dogs, etc, so I
usually manage to spread the job over a couple days, but I'd be pretty
wary of a shop quoting much longer than 4 to 6 hours for the chore.

Hope this is helpful.

ByeBye! S.
Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

 

[weelliott]

Okay guys, thanks for the info, it sounds like there is a consensus that
there really is a clutch problem here.

I just talked to the dealer, and he's quoting $795 just for the parts.
Then he's talking about $600 for the labour. Then I talked to a bunch of
other local shops, they are quoting much lower for the parts, around
$450 in most cases for the parts, and some $85-95 extra for re-machining
the flywheel. What are the opinions of aftermarket parts? Any brands I
should stay away from, or some that are really good?

Also the dealer believes that the reason it seems to happen more in the
bitter-cold is because the hydraulic fluid is cold and it doesn't adjust
as well in that environment until it heats up a bit, but he still
believes that the clutch is probably pretty thin right now because this
wouldn't have happened if there was enough material there, cold or no
cold. As I said, the problem is not occurring right now, it only
happened during the colder times, so I might have enough time to shop
around properly.

   Yousuf Khan

I got a clutch kit from rockauto.com and put it in in 2002. It now has
about 91k miles onit with no issues. I only paid about 275 for it. I
would not say that it was an easy job though. I had a bear of a time
getting the tranny in and out between alignment pins binding and
trying to coordinate getting the splined shafts in while aligning the
shaft to the pilot bearing and moving that heavy mass... Well, it is
not something I'd want to do in the cold. I spent hours with a floor
jack trying to get it positioned just right. I eventually had my
girlfriend get under the car and lift it up while I stood over the
hood and pulled it into position by grabbing the starter mounting hole
on the drivers side and something else on the other side. That method
took just a few minutes.

Bill

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

One of the reasons, that the dealer price is so high, I assume is
because they are talking about replacing the flywheel along with the
clutch, whereas the other places are just talking about re-machining the
flywheel. The dealer suggests that this is bad for the flywheel, but of
course he would suggest that. Opinions?

        Yousuf Khan

If you DO decide to get a new flywheel, AND are tempted to get a
lightweight FW, don't get crazy. Some folks have reported throwing
codes with 9 lb FWs. A Little lighter (what? 15lbs or so?) probably
OK. Maybe someone here has experience with that. For a grocery getter
- stock is probably fine.

 

[S]

Hi Bill!

I got a clutch kit from rockauto.com and put it in in 2002. It now has
about 91k miles onit with no issues. I only paid about 275 for it. I
would not say that it was an easy job though. I had a bear of a time
getting the tranny in and out between alignment pins binding and
trying to coordinate getting the splined shafts in while aligning the
shaft to the pilot bearing and moving that heavy mass... Well, it is
not something I'd want to do in the cold. I spent hours with a floor
jack trying to get it positioned just right. I eventually had my
girlfriend get under the car and lift it up while I stood over the
hood and pulled it into position by grabbing the starter mounting hole
on the drivers side and something else on the other side. That method
took just a few minutes.

Bill

Yea, like everything there are _various_ methods, some of which are
perhaps a bit more effective. I've done the floor jack thing before,
and . . . well, you were more polite than I would have been
describing the struggle But you got it done. Didn't that
celebratory beer taste great!

If you're working with a transmission jack, it more or less retains
the transmission alignment, and this greatly simplifies things. The
other thing that really helps is if you rotate the input shaft of the
tranny while you are sliding things together. Easiest way I've found
is to slowly rotate both output shafts in the same direction with a
screwdriver thru the pin holes while you push. This trick is much more
difficult when you are lying on your back.

It's actually easier to pull the engine for the job if you are working
in your driveway. A rented shop crane, or even a block and tackle on a
tree limb is about the only special tool you need, and about the only
real PITA are the heater hoses if you're trying to save them, and a
couple of the AC compressor bolts.

As far as separating the tranny from the engine, isn't that a booger?

If you promise not to throw anything at me, I'll tell you how the
"pros" do it. (I nearly had a cow when I first saw it done this way.).

What you do, is get yourself a nice sharp wood chisel, align that
sucker with the seam adjacent to where one of the top bolts goes thru
(where the castings are nice and thick),, and (er, um) drive it in.
It'll separate, you betcha. Once you get a tiny gap, slide in
something appropriately thin (a kitchen knife), move to the other
side, and do it again. Then move down the sides if necessary, but
usually they let go nicely once you get that first little bit.

This sounds (and looks, and feels) horrible, but I've never seen it
cause damage that couldn't be cleaned up with a few licks from a file.
Not like it's a sealing surface anyway, but . . .

ByeBye! S.

Steve Jernigan KG0MB
Laboratory Manager
Microelectronics Research
University of Colorado
(719) 262-3101

 

[Sheldon]

One of the reasons, that the dealer price is so high, I assume is because
they are talking about replacing the flywheel along with the clutch,
whereas the other places are just talking about re-machining the flywheel.
The dealer suggests that this is bad for the flywheel, but of course he
would suggest that. Opinions?

Yousuf Khan

Your mechanic better know what he or she is doing. I had the flywheel
resurfaced on my Porsche and a couple months later it had to be replaced.
Not only that, because the flywheel was screwed the new clutch had to be
replaced as well. If the price on a stock clutch/flywheel isn't outrageous
just replace the set, and obviously make sure to check the seals.

 

[Yousuf Khan]

Hi again, Yousuf, All!



As long as the flywheel surface is smooth and flat (straight edge
across, shouldn't be more'n maybe 10 mil out), I just clean it up with
a wire brush or roloc disk, and run with it.

That said, heat from the clutch plate slipping can easily temper the
surface, leaving hard spots. If you see a bluish discoloration on the
surface that doesn't clean up with a mild abrasive as above, probably
best to get another flywheel (I shop salvage whenever possible), or
have it turned. I know little about resurfacing flywheels, but I would
suspect that, like most things, there are right and wrong ways to go
about it. I'd stick with new or serviceable used to be safe.

Well, I assume when they say "resurfacing", that means the same as
"turning".

Turning the flywheel, i.e. taking some material off of it, isn't going
to affect it's durability is it? I know with brakes, when you grind them
down, they usually only have one or two more grindings available before
you have to totally replace, right? Is it something similar with the
flywheel?

I have installed the Exedy stage 1 clutch kit in both of our Forries
('99, and '02), and other than a bit higher pedal effort, they work
great, and have entirely eliminated the annoying chatter observed in
the OEM units. Centerforce is another proven winner. The el cheapo one
I put in mine originally didn't even have enough spring in the
pressure plate to get the pedal to come back off of the floor. I
wasted way too much time messin' with the hydraulics and pedal cage
("It _can't_ be the clutch; it's brand new" . . . classic denial, I
tell ya ;-) before resigning myself to spending $300 for the stage 1
clutch kit, and another weekend installing it. Poor man buys twice
they say.

I've had that chatter with my OEM clutch ever since I bought the
vehicle, it is annoying, and I always just assumed it was just the way
Subies were designed due to their AWD systems. One of the shops
mentioned Exedy as one of the possible parts that they use. I'll see if
they can make sure it's that one or Centreforce.

Plenty of decent independent shops out there, and at least as far as a
clutch, there is nothing special the dealership can offer beyond
$pecial pricing. FWIW, I'm strictly an amateur wrench, but I do have a
car hoist, tranny jack, and decent hand tools. I'd imagine that actual
time-on-the-job for a Soobie clutch with no other complications (via
pulling the transmission, rather than the engine) is probably around 6
hours. 'Course I stop to drink beer, chat with the neighbor(s), go for
lunch, put air in the kid's bicycle tires, walk the dogs, etc, so I
usually manage to spread the job over a couple days, but I'd be pretty
wary of a shop quoting much longer than 4 to 6 hours for the chore.

Yeah, most of the shops are suggesting 5-6.5 hours, where they even
specify hours involved. They will have to send it out to an outside shop
for the flywheel turning though.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Yousuf Khan]

If you DO decide to get a new flywheel, AND are tempted to get a
lightweight FW, don't get crazy. Some folks have reported throwing
codes with 9 lb FWs. A Little lighter (what? 15lbs or so?) probably
OK. Maybe someone here has experience with that. For a grocery getter
- stock is probably fine.

Yeah, strictly "grocery-getter". I wouldn't even consider changing the
specs one iota.

However, I'm thinking is grinding the original flywheel going to result
in a too-much reduced flywheel, enough to throw codes up, let's say?

Yousuf Khan

 

[Yousuf Khan]

I got a clutch kit from rockauto.com and put it in in 2002. It now has
about 91k miles onit with no issues. I only paid about 275 for it. I
would not say that it was an easy job though. I had a bear of a time
getting the tranny in and out between alignment pins binding and
trying to coordinate getting the splined shafts in while aligning the
shaft to the pilot bearing and moving that heavy mass... Well, it is
not something I'd want to do in the cold. I spent hours with a floor
jack trying to get it positioned just right. I eventually had my
girlfriend get under the car and lift it up while I stood over the
hood and pulled it into position by grabbing the starter mounting hole
on the drivers side and something else on the other side. That method
took just a few minutes.

Strong girlfriend, you got there!

Yousuf Khan

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

Yeah, strictly "grocery-getter". I wouldn't even consider changing the
specs one iota.

However, I'm thinking is grinding the original flywheel going to result
in a too-much reduced flywheel, enough to throw codes up, let's say?

        Yousuf Khan

IIRC from reading about it, the stock FW is over 30lbs. Folks getting
9 (yes NINE) lb FWs were throwing cam angle codes (again,
IIRC ,probably from timing belt stretch?). Folks with 13lb FWs seemed
OK.

 

[Yousuf Khan]

IIRC from reading about it, the stock FW is over 30lbs. Folks getting
9 (yes NINE) lb FWs were throwing cam angle codes (again,
IIRC ,probably from timing belt stretch?). Folks with 13lb FWs seemed
OK.

Okay, then that sounds like there is plenty of material to go, on the
original flywheel, before it's even an issue.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Yousuf Khan]

Your mechanic better know what he or she is doing. I had the flywheel
resurfaced on my Porsche and a couple months later it had to be replaced.
Not only that, because the flywheel was screwed the new clutch had to be
replaced as well. If the price on a stock clutch/flywheel isn't outrageous
just replace the set, and obviously make sure to check the seals.

According to Lucky Texan, the original flywheel on Subies are 30 lbs.
Perhaps Porsche flywheels are much closer to the minimum limit?

Yousuf Khan