From the dealers perspective. Things Ive Learned at a Subaru Dealership.....

[StephenW]

I feel lucky to work at a reputable Subaru dealership. I see no cheating or
trying to milk money out of the customer, but people trying to fix cars.
Some customers may say otherwise, but there are two sides to a story.. here
are some of ours:

Customer #1: (Lastweek) The puddle is deeper than it looks, driving into it
may put water in your engine and computer and the insurance may totlal it.
Customer #2: (Lastweek) The puddle is deeper than it looks, driving into it
may put water in your engine and Subaru dosn't pay for this. I realise the
car only has 4000 miles on it. Being the car is brand new,
getting a new long block will take some time; we have to order it from
Japan.
Customer #3: (Lastweek) I realise that our brakejob was priced expensive,
and you did it cheaper at home. But the tools we use are expensive, and
jacking it by the oil pan is not suggested, you may put a big
hole in it and into the oil pickup screen. This part will have to be ordered
too-
Customer #4: (Lastyear) I know your a 20 year man, and dumping the clutch on
a WRX may seem like the thing to do, but 1st gear dosn't desinigrate like
that on its own. No there isn't a known weakness in the WRX
transmissions. If you plan to treat it like a race car, get a STI, that
transmission is about bulletproof. (I don't recall the resalution to this
case)
Customer #5: (Lastyear) Do you know customer #4? OK, 3 way split, you play
1/3, the dealership 1/3 and Subaru 1/3.
Customer #5: (Lastyear, 1 month later) Stiff to shift now? Lets look at it.
Wow, look at all the wear on the edges of those new gears; As the Subaru
evaluater says "This kid needs a sponcer, and Subaru
isn't it." (this one went to court; we as a shop never heard the final
answer)
Tuner Customer #6-7-8: Modifacations to the car can and will void the
warrenty. If we see mods, such as ECU Modifacations, Cat removal, o2 sensors
bypassed, we don't wonder why the check engine light is
on. Its our job to fix the cars as they were made from the factory. There is
an entire TSB covering engine mods and warrenty.
Customer #9: (Lastyear) Your engine is bad, knocking. The car has 28,000
miles on it. Can you prove you have had the oil changed? While 3000 is the
standard, 7000 is what the manufacture suggests, so show us
proof of 4 oil changes, thats all. Why don't you wish for us to see the
recept of the oil change at Jiffie Lube? Does it say something like "No oil
on stick" on it? (I think we split the cost on this repair
too)


IF you have regular service done at a shop, expect them to go farther to
help you. A example: A 90k service done, and about a month later the car
returns due to a transmission noise. The oil level was
good, the diff bearing went bad. We did a 3way split with this customer for
the repair. When the service manager is discussing a case with the Subaru
people, he will let them know the service history of the
cosomer, this often can influance the decisions.
Last week a car came in after having the timing belt was
done at another shop, noting the heads were leaking, but it is over milage
on the engine, but not years. Altho this car has not been in our
shop befor, it was agreed that we will put the coolant additive/sealant in
and wait 6 months. If the leak persists, then 50/50 or 1/3 split on the
cost.

Gee Whiz: Don't post on the internet how you trashed your car and Subaru has
to pay for it (LOL) Honest people read the internet and may send everything
you wrote to the service managers in your area. The Tech or
Service manager may even be reading the bullitenboard....

 

[illinoissube]

I feel lucky to work at a reputable Subaru dealership. I see no cheating or
trying to milk money out of the customer, but people trying to fix cars.
Some customers may say otherwise, but there are two sides to a story.. here
are some of ours:

Great stories! Thanks for posting them.

I'm certain y'all have to deal with folks like this all the freakin
time.

Personally I've had really positive experience with Roto Subaru in
Arlington Heights, IL. Their service department while not flawless
does have one very experienced Subaru tech who seems very good. They
also have an A+ sales guy named Charles Perchak who should be running
the place, honestly. At one point though, he reported to some sales
manager who was a complete douchebag (Rodd Stein). Sadly, that led to
me buying the car at the other area dealer when I'd really liked to
have given Charles and Joe McAvoy (another great guy) that business.


Subaru of Schaumburg, unfortunately -- at least back when I purchased
my car, was staffed by very inexperienced techs and a service manager
who I thought might drop dead of a heart attack at any moment whose
interests didn't seem to be the customer's. I tried them again years
later only to be treated unprofessionally by a rather young service
advisor whose customer service bent was such that I went hunting for
an independent.

 

[Dano58]

Last week a car came in after having the timing belt was
done at another shop, noting the heads were leaking, but it is over milage
on the engine, but not years. Altho this car has not been in our
shop befor, it was agreed that we will put the coolant additive/sealant in
and wait 6 months. If the leak persists, then 50/50 or 1/3 split on the
cost.

I'm curious about the additive/sealant comment. I just received a
notice from our local dealer last week saying that the 105-month
service is due on the car. Since the car actually has a newer engine
(from an '01 RS with about $36k on it) I'm not going to have the
service done at this point. But also on the notice was a comment about
'Service Campaign WWP99 - Engine Cooling System Conditioner'. Is that
what you're referring to? And is it actually a 'sealant'?

Thanks,

Dan D
'99 Impreza 2.5 RS (son's)
Central NJ USA

 

[.._..]

I'm curious about the additive/sealant comment. I just received a
notice from our local dealer last week saying that the 105-month
service is due on the car. Since the car actually has a newer engine
(from an '01 RS with about $36k on it) I'm not going to have the
service done at this point. But also on the notice was a comment about
'Service Campaign WWP99 - Engine Cooling System Conditioner'. Is that
what you're referring to? And is it actually a 'sealant'?

It's re-branded "leak stop" stuff that goes in the coolant. (They just
slapped a Subaru sticker on some over the counter stuff.) A rather oily
looking liquid that gets into cracks (and gunks up your radiator and
overflow tank) and stops gaskets from leaking coolant as well. Some people
swear by it, others swear at it as a shitty fix for an expensive problem.

Usually it's SOAs response to a leaking gasket internally to the cylinder.
The external gasket leak is a "replace gasket" recall not a "add
conditioner" recall item. So if you are getting weaping outside the head of
coolant, you have a different problem than what the conditioner can solve.

It's just a temporary fix they use to get you out of warranty before the
engine needs replacing or the gaskets completely fail.

Sorry, but goop put in the engine will not make a shitty gasket design a
good gasket design. The only real solution is to get the gaskets replaced
before the engine is destroyed by low coolant and spot-overheating.

Here's a detailed story about the problem;
http://home.comcast.net/~skipnospam/Head_gasket_replacement.html

If you have a 2001 EJ251 engine, you have one of the models that could have
the issue (not all of them get it). So get the coolant conditoner from the
dealership and get it documented so they have to pay if it blows before the
warranty is up.

"When the service manager is discussing a case with the Subaru
people, he will let them know the service history of the
cosomer, this often can influance the decisions."

In other words, throw lots of extra money at a dealership and they just
might honor what they are legally bound to honor because their parent
company (and they) fucked up big time when they bored out a 2.0 liter engine
into a 2.5 without beefing up the gaskets or the cylinder wall.

All car dealerships are scum, you can't really escape that basic fact.
Here's one that wants a bunch of money before he'll consider doing what he
should have been doing in the first place. Sorry, folks shouldn't be
expected to be thinking about blown head gaskets on a four year old car
unless it's a Ford.

 

[suburboturbo]

I feel lucky to work at a reputable Subaru dealership. I see no cheating or
trying to milk money out of the customer, but people trying to fix cars.
Some customers may say otherwise, but there are two sides to a story.. here
are some of ours:

Customer #1: (Lastweek) The puddle is deeper than it looks, driving into it
may put water in your engine and computer and the insurance may totlal it.
Customer #2: (Lastweek) The puddle is deeper than it looks, driving into it
may put water in your engine and Subaru dosn't pay for this. I realise the
car only has 4000 miles on it. Being the car is brand new,
getting a new long block will take some time; we have to order it from
Japan.
Customer #3: (Lastweek) I realise that our brakejob was priced  expensive,
and you did it cheaper at home. But the tools we use are expensive, and
jacking it by the oil pan is not suggested, you may put a                big
hole in it and into the oil pickup screen. This part will have to be ordered
too-
Customer #4: (Lastyear) I know your a 20 year man, and dumping the clutch on
a WRX may seem like the thing to do, but 1st gear dosn't desinigrate like
that on its own. No there isn't a known weakness                 in the WRX
transmissions. If you plan to treat it like a race car, get a STI, that
transmission is about bulletproof. (I don't recall the resalution to this
case)
Customer #5: (Lastyear) Do you know customer #4? OK, 3 way split, you play
1/3, the dealership 1/3 and Subaru 1/3.
Customer #5: (Lastyear, 1 month later) Stiff to shift now? Lets look at it..
Wow, look at all the wear on the edges of those new gears; As the Subaru
evaluater says "This kid needs a sponcer, and Subaru
isn't it." (this one went to court; we as a shop never heard the final
answer)
Tuner Customer #6-7-8: Modifacations to the car can and will void the
warrenty. If we see mods, such as ECU Modifacations, Cat removal, o2 sensors
bypassed, we don't wonder why the check engine                    light is
on. Its our job to fix the cars as they were made from the factory. There is
an entire TSB covering engine mods and warrenty.
Customer #9: (Lastyear) Your engine is bad, knocking. The car has 28,000
miles on it. Can you prove you have had the oil changed? While 3000 is the
standard, 7000 is what the manufacture suggests, so                 show us
proof of 4 oil changes, thats all. Why don't you wish for us to see the
recept of the oil change at Jiffie Lube? Does it say something like "No oil
on stick" on it? (I think we split the cost on                this repair
too)

IF you have regular service done at a shop, expect them to go farther to
help you. A example: A 90k service done, and about a month later the car
returns due to a transmission noise. The oil level was
good, the diff bearing went bad. We did a 3way split with this customer for
the repair. When the service manager is discussing a case with the Subaru
people, he will let them know the service                     history of the
cosomer, this often can influance the decisions.
                Last week a car came in after having the timing belt was
done at another shop, noting the heads were leaking, but it is over milage
on the engine, but not years. Altho this car has not been in our
shop befor, it was agreed that we will put the coolant additive/sealant in
and wait 6 months. If the leak persists, then 50/50 or 1/3 split on the
cost.

Gee Whiz: Don't post on the internet how you trashed your car and Subaru has
to pay for it (LOL) Honest people read the internet and may send everything
you wrote to the service managers in your area.                 The Tech or
Service manager may even be reading the bullitenboard....

Don't you love it. I used to work at a body shop, doing mostly front-
end work and other mechanical repairs to fix damage that came along
with minor collisions. Since we didn't deal with warranty claims, I
didn't have an opportunity to the hear the stories you did, but heard
enough. Well, gee, I'm not surprised the car was "steering funny"
before the crash. You had no ball joints and the shocks were mush
after 120,000 miles. When I suggested changing the tranny fluid as
long as I had the car on the lift (assuming correctly it hadn't been
changed in those 120k) 9 times out of 10 they were sure you were
trying to rip them off because they never heard of it being done
before. Check the service schedule in your owners manual. "Oh, I
lost that years ago".

 

[Dano58]

It's re-branded "leak stop" stuff that goes in the coolant. (They just
slapped a Subaru sticker on some over the counter stuff.) A rather oily
looking liquid that gets into cracks (and gunks up your radiator and
overflow tank) and stops gaskets from leaking coolant as well. Some people
swear by it, others swear at it as a shitty fix for an expensive problem.

Usually it's SOAs response to a leaking gasket internally to the cylinder.
The external gasket leak is a "replace gasket" recall not a "add
conditioner" recall item. So if you are getting weaping outside the head of
coolant, you have a different problem than what the conditioner can solve.

It's just a temporary fix they use to get you out of warranty before the
engine needs replacing or the gaskets completely fail.

Sorry, but goop put in the engine will not make a shitty gasket design a
good gasket design. The only real solution is to get the gaskets replaced
before the engine is destroyed by low coolant and spot-overheating.

Here's a detailed story about the problem;http://home.comcast.net/~skipnospam/Head_gasket_replacement.html

If you have a 2001 EJ251 engine, you have one of the models that could have
the issue (not all of them get it). So get the coolant conditoner from the
dealership and get it documented so they have to pay if it blows before the
warranty is up.

"When the service manager is discussing a case with the Subaru
people, he will let them know the service history of the
cosomer, this often can influance the decisions."

In other words, throw lots of extra money at a dealership and they just
might honor what they are legally bound to honor because their parent
company (and they) fucked up big time when they bored out a 2.0 liter engine
into a 2.5 without beefing up the gaskets or the cylinder wall.

All car dealerships are scum, you can't really escape that basic fact.
Here's one that wants a bunch of money before he'll consider doing what he
should have been doing in the first place. Sorry, folks shouldn't be
expected to be thinking about blown head gaskets on a four year old car
unless it's a Ford.

Wow, you must be bitter about something, eh, ".._.."? I have a hard
time accepting advice from someone who doesn't put even a made-up name
on his or her posts..... I'll wait to see what StephenW has to say.

I have certainly heard of issues with the Subaru 2.5 headgaskets but
thought that they had the issue fixed by the '01 model year.

Dan D
'99 Impreza 2.5 RS (son's)
Central NJ USA

 

[Carl 1 Lucky Texan]

It's re-branded "leak stop" stuff that goes in the coolant. (They just
slapped a Subaru sticker on some over the counter stuff.) A rather oily
looking liquid that gets into cracks (and gunks up your radiator and
overflow tank) and stops gaskets from leaking coolant as well. Some people
swear by it, others swear at it as a shitty fix for an expensive problem.

Usually it's SOAs response to a leaking gasket internally to the cylinder.
The external gasket leak is a "replace gasket" recall not a "add
conditioner" recall item. So if you are getting weaping outside the head of
coolant, you have a different problem than what the conditioner can solve.

Just to clear things up - the external weeping is treated with the
coolant conditioner IIRC (which is a rebranded product, as are most
fluids sold by ALL car companies, but not all the OTC products are the
same and Subaru will sell it to you very cheap IIRC so you could do your
own coolant changes).

The internal leak requires new gaskets.



Carl

 

[Todd H.]

I have certainly heard of issues with the Subaru 2.5 headgaskets but
thought that they had the issue fixed by the '01 model year.

Nope. Mine (2001 Outback) joined the new HG club 8 months ago at
around 110k miles. Small internal leak, but a leak.

 

[StephenW]

Wow, you must be bitter about something, eh, ".._.."? I have a hard
time accepting advice from someone who doesn't put even a made-up name
on his or her posts..... I'll wait to see what StephenW has to say.

I have certainly heard of issues with the Subaru 2.5 headgaskets but
thought that they had the issue fixed by the '01 model year.

Dan D
'99 Impreza 2.5 RS (son's)
Central NJ USA

Carl nailed it on the head. It's for external weeping only. It is just a
"approved" additive for Subaru. We have seen no problems with it clogging
the cooling system.
As fot specific modles that are effected, Wow, I'm as curious as you. We
don't see a ton of head gaskets but enough. Some single, some dual cams.
this seems to be more than a set number; but those repaired don't come back.
We see many with no leaks at all in them also......
I checked a 03 legacy, it has the tsb for the additive but not the
headgaskets; as if the problem is resolved.



Here is the tsb for the head gasket from a 2000 legacy. These are not all
the info:
SUBJECT:
Engine Cooling System Conditioner

INTRODUCTION

Subaru of America, Inc. (SOA) has determined that over time, affected
vehicles may develop small external coolant leaks at engine cylinder head
gaskets. This is the result of normal expansion and contraction of engine
components caused by the heating and cooling of these parts. To prevent
cylinder head gasket leaks from developing or to correct existing leaks, a
special Subaru Cooling System Conditioner should be added to affected
vehicle cooling systems.

This Service Program will involve adding one bottle of Genuine Subaru
Cooling System Conditioner to the engine cooling system.

AFFECTED VEHICLES

2000-2002 MY Subaru Legacy and Outback with 2.5L engine.

1999-2002 MY Impreza with 2.5L engine.

1999-2002 MY Forester with 2.5L engine.

Affected vehicles are identified in the VIN range chart below. Only vehicles
with a 2.5L engine are affected


Here is the tsb on the additive:
This conditioner reinforces the efficiency of the cooling system and
includes anti-corrosive properties. When used as directed, the Cooling
System Conditioner remains suspended in the radiator until the engine is
started and the thermostat fully opens. Once this product begins to
circulate throughout the cooling system, the conditioner is attracted to the
suspect area in the vehicle's cooling system. The heat generated by the
engine acts as an activation agent and hardens the cooling system
conditioner to help seal the suspect area.

It is important to remember that this product is not to be used in place of
proper diagnostic processes. The proper diagnostic process is to thoroughly
inspect the cooling system before the conditioner is added to the vehicle.
For example, this product does not remedy concerns where coolant is found in
the combustion chSUBJECT:
Engine Cooling System Conditioner


--
Steve
ASE Master Tech
L1 Diag
Currently residing at a Subaru Shop
4.5 years doing tires and alighnments

 

[Dano58]

Carl nailed it on the head. It's for external weeping only. It is just a
"approved" additive for Subaru. We have seen no problems with it clogging
the cooling system.
As fot specific modles that are effected, Wow, I'm as curious as you. We
don't see a ton of head gaskets but enough. Some single, some dual cams.
this seems to be more than a set number; but those repaired don't come back.
We see many with no leaks at all in them also......
I checked a 03 legacy, it has the tsb for the additive but not the
headgaskets; as if the problem is resolved.

Here is the tsb for the head gasket from a 2000 legacy. These are not all
the info:
SUBJECT:
Engine Cooling System Conditioner

INTRODUCTION

Subaru of America, Inc. (SOA) has determined that over time, affected
vehicles may develop small external coolant leaks at engine cylinder head
gaskets. This is the result of normal expansion and contraction of engine
components caused by the heating and cooling of these parts. To prevent
cylinder head gasket leaks from developing or to correct existing leaks, a
special Subaru Cooling System Conditioner should be added to affected
vehicle cooling systems.

This Service Program will involve adding one bottle of Genuine Subaru
Cooling System Conditioner to the engine cooling system.

AFFECTED VEHICLES

2000-2002 MY Subaru Legacy and Outback with 2.5L engine.

1999-2002 MY Impreza with 2.5L engine.

1999-2002 MY Forester with 2.5L engine.

Affected vehicles are identified in the VIN range chart below. Only vehicles
with a 2.5L engine are affected

Here is the tsb on the additive:
This conditioner reinforces the efficiency of the cooling system and
includes anti-corrosive properties. When used as directed, the Cooling
System Conditioner remains suspended in the radiator until the engine is
started and the thermostat fully opens. Once this product begins to
circulate throughout the cooling system, the conditioner is attracted to the
suspect area in the vehicle's cooling system. The heat generated by the
engine acts as an activation agent and hardens the cooling system
conditioner to help seal the suspect area.

It is important to remember that this product is not to be used in place of
proper diagnostic processes. The proper diagnostic process is to thoroughly
inspect the cooling system before the conditioner is added to the vehicle.
For example, this product does not remedy concerns where coolant is found in
the combustion chSUBJECT:
Engine Cooling System Conditioner

--
Steve
ASE Master Tech
L1 Diag
Currently residing at a Subaru Shop
4.5 years doing tires and alighnments

Thanks, Steve. I guess I will make arrangements for this to be added
to my son's car.

Dan D
'99 Impreza 2.5 RS (son's)
Central NJ USA

 

[Mark]

Customer #4: (Lastyear) I know your a 20 year man, and dumping the
clutch on a WRX may seem like the thing to do, but 1st gear dosn't
desinigrate like that on its own. No there isn't a known weakness in
the WRX transmissions. If you plan to treat it like a race car,
get a STI, that transmission is about bulletproof. (I don't recall
the resalution to this case)

I went to school with a guy that received a new1974 Pontiac Trans-AM 455 S/D
for his Senior year.

According to the Pontiac Dealer Service Manager, who is a friend of mine,
the car went through 5 clutches and 2 transmissions under warranty.

another mechanic that lives in the neighborhood as "tommy" and I did, called
me one afternoon

did I know "tommy"

yes

his dad has his car down at my shop wondering why the back tires wore out
after 5,000 miles...... the fronts are like new

well, does the dad know that "tommy" was drag racing the car on the high
school parking lot the day after he received it....... ??

yeah, thats what I figured was going on............ nothing wrong with the
drivetrain of the car.