Forrester head gasket

[kms12]

hi we have a 2002 forrester in australia and it appears to have just
blown a head gasket. it should be under warranty but they may argue
about the service repair history which has been consistent, just not
every 12500kms like they suggest (given that it costs hundreds of
dollars to do a minor service at my dealer...but thats a whole other
issue). i read that there is a known head gasket problem with
forresters in the US, to the extent of subaru recognising the issue but
not willing to do anything other than on a case by case basis. does
anyone in australia have similar experience with head gasket problems,
ie, is it a known issue here?
thanks
kylie.

 

[Tony Burns (permanent dismisser of Andy, AJS and ]]

Hi Kylie

It would help if you could advise did you purchase the vehicle new?

If not when and where did you buy it, Did you have it inspected ?

How many kilometres have you done and has the warranty expired?

Has it been serviced per the log book? My experience with Subaru
Australia has been first class so I'm surprised by what you have
written.

Have they written to you declining to repair your car and the reasons
why?

Have you had an inspection by the NRMA/RACV etc confirming there is a
problem?

I await your response.

cheers

 

[kms12]

hi tony
we did buy the car direct from a dealer, it had been their demo car and
had 5000k on it, so we got an extended warranty, but it was new. i am
hoping that subaru australia will allow the work to be done under
warranty, but the new dealer/service centre i took it to yesterday
thought they might be less than happy with the not-perfect service
history (it has missed 3). it has done a lot of kms, i will say that,
140000 but it is over 3 years old now so i dont know if thats unusual.
the mechanic at the dealership here in the ACT (we bought the car in
NSW) was very nice and had a look at the car, which i had serviced at
ultratune and they advised that there was a leak over the realr left
hand cylinder. the mechanic at the dealership feels this is a gasket
issue, and he has contacted subaru to see if they will do it under
warranty. he doesnt feel that there was anything we could have done to
prevent it, so i am hoping that subaru will be reasonable. i was very
impressed with the dealership i went to the other day but have had a
terrible experience with the place where we bought the car in
wollongong nsw and was very hesitant to take it to another dealership
for servicing when we moved interstate, but now i am going to go there
all the time.

otherwise its been a brilliant car, not a single problem really until
this. i am just trying to gather as much info as i can incase subaru
give us a hard time about missing 3 services. perhaps i dont need to
worry!

do you know how likely it is that a leak is really a blown head gasket?
the car has never overheated and has only ever needed coolant added
once by us, and then it was just a top up. there is never anything on
the ground under the car, so even tho the new dealership was very nice,
i have been so burnt by mechanics i am not sure who to trust. if they
tell me its a blown head gasket and subaru wont pay then we're out of
pocket $1500. who do you trust when theres money involved?!!

thanks for responding anyway tony.
cheers
kylie

 

[Tony Burns (permanent dismisser of Andy, AJS and ]]

Is the extended warranty a Subaru one and not one of those fake extra
one that dealers give away for nothing? (and are worth nothing).

My view of Ultratune is less than perfect, their mechanics aren't
generally Subaru trained and have usually worked at a Holden or Ford
workshop. Anything they diagnose would need a second opinion from a
Subaru dealer and a Subaru representative.

In regards to the missed services, some of these are minor and a couple
are MAJOR, E.G. 50000 kms, 75000 kms 100000kms. If these aren't done in
accordance to the Service schedule you may have a problem. I've found
Subaru to be more than reasonable in the past.

My suggestion is that if it is a genuine Subaru warrantee, your Subaru
dealer will be able to confirm this with Subaru Australia through the
VIN code, you should negotiate for the repair (if one is needed) to be
covered. If it is another company's warrantee then you may be in
trouble.

Until you start talking to Subaru you really can't do anything.

HTH

 

[kms12]

thanks very much for this, thankfully the services missed are all
minor, we were very diligent about the majors, esp the 50 and 100k. its
a genuine subaru warranty till 2007 but because of the car being a demo
model, we didnt pay anything for it. its got a genuine subaru extended
warranty card, so in that case, given what you say, perhaps we will be
ok.

i wasnt happy with this ultratune, they did the 137500k service for
$306 and the subaru guy told me it would have cost 175 there! but i
definately got the impression that it was a very cursory service and i
wont be convinced its a blown gasket until the subaru mechanic
definately says so.

he did put it up on the hoist the other day and said he could see the
leak from underneath but i guess they dont want to touch it till they
get the go ahead from subaru.
the guy at subaru here said he would negotiate with subaru on my
behalf, so i imagine we will hear something after easter. i think the
difference between the dealership here and the one in wollongong is the
one in wollongong is a franchise whereas this one in the act is not,
they just do subaru and nothing else, so i feel better taking it there.
they were rather amused that i had been charged $12.50 for water
replacement in the washer bottle at my previous dealer, and not just
once but TWICE, after i had gone off my head about it the first time!!

it eases my mind to know you have found subaru themselves to be
reasonable, i was reading horror stories about them in the US where
they have had hundreds of blown head gaskets in young cars and are
contemplating a class action! they say this is because their cars are
assembled in north america, but i take it ours come direct from fuji
heavy industries in japan. apparently they are much more reliable if
made there?

anyway thanks for your help tony, appreciate it! the car is still going
great, there is no evidence of anything being wrong in the driving,
handling, indicators etc, so we will see what happens.

have a good easter!
kylie.

 

[Tony Burns (permanent dismisser of Andy, AJS and ]]

No worries Kylie.

 

[Clifford Heath]

he did put it up on the hoist the other day and said he could see the
leak from underneath

i was reading horror stories about them in the US where
they have had hundreds of blown head gaskets in young cars and are
contemplating a class action!

Kylie - There are two distinct gasket failurea that are common,
on two different 2.5L engines. You need to know which one you
have.

If the failure is visible from outside the engine, I'm assuming
that it's the SOHC (single overhead cam) engine, not the DOHC
like our '99 Liberty RX. The failure with the SOHC engine generally
causes the coolant to leak to the outside of the engine. The
main problem with that is you run short on coolant and get air
in it, which allows hot spots to develop in the engine, which
can eventually cause seizure. This problem gets treated by
Subaru, in the USA at least, with some magic goo in the coolant
that clogs up the holes... and probably other things. No-one's
very happy about that "fix", but that's whats on offer, hence
the threat of a class action.

The DOHC failure allows hot exhaust gas into the coolant so it
spills out through the overflow bottle and you get the same
end result. But you'll know this one, because when the engine
is running, you'll get continuous bubbling coming out of the
overflow reservoir (where you fill the coolant). This is what
happened to ours at 130,000Km. Actually it happened 10,000Km
after the 120,000 service, because the shop didn't refill it
correctly. It can occur at *any* mileage if the coolant hasn't
been correctly filled *even once*, and most such engines last
no more than 140,000 before it happens. It's the fault of the
service shop, because they don't know/don't bother learning
to compensate for what is actually a serious (though fairly
common) design flaw in the engines. Generally it won't happen
if you use Subaru manufacturer service, but who can afford
to pay $AU110/hour for service? Absolutely outrageous, that's
double the rate for a top mechanic, four times an apprentice's.
I won't go there again, but I have found a new service place
who I grilled thoroughly to ensure they truly are expert with
Subarus and know I expect that, never an apprentice.

The proper fix for both problems is a new gasket, which will
cost you around $AU2500, if our experience of last July at
Bright is anything to go by. :-(. No point trying to get the
service place to pay it, you'd never prove it. Just vote with
your feet.

Best of luck,

Clifford Heath (in Melbourne).

 

[Tony Burns (permanent dismisser of Andy, AJS and ]]

Your problem Heath is you're "assuming". At this stage no head gasket
issue has been identified and the issue is up for discussion with Subaru
Australia.

Your unhappiness is clouding Kyle's issue unnecessarily.

 

[Tony Burns (permanent dismisser of Andy, AJS and ]]

Sorry I meant Clifford.

Kylie - There are two distinct gasket failurea that are common,
on two different 2.5L engines. You need to know which one you
have.

If the failure is visible from outside the engine, I'm assuming
that it's the SOHC (single overhead cam) engine, not the DOHC
like our '99 Liberty RX. The failure with the SOHC engine generally
causes the coolant to leak to the outside of the engine. The
main problem with that is you run short on coolant and get air
in it, which allows hot spots to develop in the engine, which
can eventually cause seizure. This problem gets treated by
Subaru, in the USA at least, with some magic goo in the coolant
that clogs up the holes... and probably other things. No-one's
very happy about that "fix", but that's whats on offer, hence
the threat of a class action.

The DOHC failure allows hot exhaust gas into the coolant so it
spills out through the overflow bottle and you get the same
end result. But you'll know this one, because when the engine
is running, you'll get continuous bubbling coming out of the
overflow reservoir (where you fill the coolant). This is what
happened to ours at 130,000Km. Actually it happened 10,000Km
after the 120,000 service, because the shop didn't refill it
correctly. It can occur at *any* mileage if the coolant hasn't
been correctly filled *even once*, and most such engines last
no more than 140,000 before it happens. It's the fault of the
service shop, because they don't know/don't bother learning
to compensate for what is actually a serious (though fairly
common) design flaw in the engines. Generally it won't happen
if you use Subaru manufacturer service, but who can afford
to pay $AU110/hour for service? Absolutely outrageous, that's
double the rate for a top mechanic, four times an apprentice's.
I won't go there again, but I have found a new service place
who I grilled thoroughly to ensure they truly are expert with
Subarus and know I expect that, never an apprentice.

The proper fix for both problems is a new gasket, which will
cost you around $AU2500, if our experience of last July at
Bright is anything to go by. :-(. No point trying to get the
service place to pay it, you'd never prove it. Just vote with
your feet.

Best of luck,

Clifford Heath (in Melbourne).

 

[Clifford Heath]

Your problem Heath is you're "assuming".

Well, yes, I suppose I should have said "you need to know
whether you have one of them". It could be something else.
In fact the symptoms don't necessarily sound like a HG. That's
why I tried to describe the symptoms of the two common failures,
since *she* raised the issue of class actions - not me.

As for unhappiness, well, the Liberty is the nicest car I've
owned (though not the most fun - that's my '69 Alfa . I'm
not unhappy with it. There are several service places I'm
obviously unhappy with. That includes Subaru Aust, but only
because of their inflated labour prices - the staff are very
professional. I'm not spiteful, so I didn't mention other
names, but it's as well that Kylie knows the likely results
of using incompetent service folk.

Your unhappiness is clouding Kyle's issue unnecessarily.

I guess we disagree on that one.

 

[kms12]

thanks for this info....what is really interesting is that the problem
we have doesnt sound like either of the scenarios you describe. in fact
we dont even have a problem that i can see, hear or feel. i have
mechanics telling me there are signs of leaks, but as tony said no one
will know until a proper inspection of the alleged head gasket is done.

i just get sick of feeling like im being ripped off at every turn. i
dont like going to ultratune, i just know its not the same as a subaru
trained mechanic, and then i think subaru are so goddamn precious about
everything that goes NEAR the car, is all of that completely warranted?

and my experience with one subaru dealer's service prices was
appalling. i am hoping that the new one is not so bad but if anyone
knows a good subaru mechanic in the ACT they trust i'd be grateful!

thanks for the help - all info is good info.

cheers
kylie.

 

[Clifford Heath]

thanks for this info....what is really interesting is that the problem
we have doesnt sound like either of the scenarios you describe.

You're welcome. Best of luck getting it fixed, and in finding a mechanic
you trust.

trained mechanic, and then i think subaru are so goddamn precious about
everything that goes NEAR the car, is all of that completely warranted?

It definitely would have been in my case, but only because the place I
did go to falsely claimed to be Subaru specialists.

 

[Kevin Hall]

Subaru definitely have head gasket troubles on their 2.5 l SOHC engines,
and they have known it for a long time. Here in Canada there is a recall on
record which the dealers have kept quiet, choosing rather to add a chemical
'Rad Stop-Leak' type substance when the vehicles come in for regular
service. Obviously that is an attempt to get the gaskets past the warranty
period without it costing them any real money.

Ours went at just over 65,000 km, and the dealer kept telling me the
antifreeze on the snow was a result of overfilling. When I persisted they
finally examined it more closely and agreed to do the gaskets under
warranty. They claimed the heads were magnafluxed and skimmed .010" to
ensure they were flat before going back down.

Within a month after the job the engine was making a noise like a couple of
the pistons were fighting to get out. Took it to another dealership, they
had a Suby Canada rep listen to it and they agreed that coolant must have
leaked inside the bores during the 6 or 8 weeks in which the first dealer
kept trying to fob me off. Apparently the very short modern pistons are
coated in molybdenum disulphide or something similar, and the antifreeze
can attack that coating.

Suby replaced my complete shortblock, that is, everything south of the
heads, under warranty and again claimed they'd had the heads milled another
..010" to ensure they were flat. One month after the one year warranty on
the repairs had expired the damned things started leaking again. By this
time all warranty was over on the car, so I took it to the chap who
services our other two cars. He has had a fair bit of experience with
Subies and this gasket problem, and tells me the stock gaskets are made
from the Dead Seas Scrolls, or at least their price would suggest that.
They also fail with alarming regularity. He replaced the gaskets with
aftermarket type and they sealed up fine and haven't given any trouble
since.

Interestingly, I warned him the heads had already been skimmed .020" and
suggested he mike them to make sure any further head milling wouldn't hit
water . He did that and discovered that both Suby dealerships had been
lying through their teeth; the heads were stock thickness. The only
evidence of 'machining' was scratches left in the alloy where some idiot had
scrubbed away the remains of the old gaskets with a bit of 80-grit,
freehand.

I love driving our Forester, but wouldn't buy another Suby until they have
polygraphs installed in their service depts. Incidentally, since the job
was done by my local garage the car runs better than it has since we bought
it. The job was just over half the price quoted by the dealership.

Good luck.
KH

 

[kms12]

hi kevin your post made me laugh out loud. what a bunch of scheisters
mechanics are and they wonder why we get pissed?! good ones excepted of
course (could they please stand up so we can all take note?)...

as an update, i have spoken to the dealer here and he has spoken to
subaru who have agreed to pay for the parts if we will pay for the
labour. i am guessing for a head gasket job the labour is kind of
expensive! my husband is going to take over negotiations in that dept
now. i hate to be stereotypical about these things but they really do
treat you like youre an idiot if you have two x chromosones. the dealer
was very nice to me and it was good of him to talk to subaru on my
behalf but im sure its all to their mutual benefit. i told him that i
was going to get my husband to come in and talk to him because as yet
we have no verifiable evidence of it being a head gasket and if we
agree to pay for a heap of labour that requires engine parts being
pulled out etc only to find that no parts need replacing, well we wont
be happy!! he got a little testy when i told him this, ie "i was only
trying to help, it would normally cost such and such" etc etc. i am
doing a phd (ok so its not in mechanical engineering!) and am not an
idiot. i know that labour is usually the most expensive part. he said
well yes get a second opinion if you want, and i said its not that, its
just that we dont know for sure that thats what it is and i dont want
to agree to anything until i know exactly what were agreeing to!

so i am going to take tonys advice and get the NRMA (national motor
club thingy) of which we are members to do an inspection and then take
negotiations from there. meanwhile car still running like a dream. no
antifreeze on my snow!

thanks again
kylie.

 

[Tony Burns (permanent dismisser of Andy, AJS and ]]

Stand your ground Kylie! Make sure you show your documentation to the
NRMA, Subaru will come good if you're right.

Good luck.

 

[kms12]

thanks tony
nrma found evidence of coolant leak and oil buildup and suggested we
get it looked at. we have booked it in at the dealership service centre
agreeing to pay for labour while subaru pay for parts at this stage,
tho my husband is going to get on the phone to subaru as we do expect
them to pay for the lot. they reckon about $600 worth of labour which i
am happy to pay for the cars sake and then fight with subaru later if
need be!

thanks for your help
cheers
kylie