Engine ping/detonation - 2002 Outback H4 2.5 AT

[Voja]

I'm asking for advice if anybody can supply one on this issue. I'm not
the only one that has problems with engine ping/detonation. I know 4
(four) more people that are trying to resolve this but, so far, without
success.

My options are as follows:

- Take Subaru of Canada and/or Don Docksteader Subaru of Vancouver, BC
to Small Claims Court
- Report them to Better Business Bureau
- Report them to local/national (Canadian) TV/newspaper (in progress)
- Go thru Internet media

One thing is clear, I love my Outback (2002 H4 2.5L AT) but ever since
16K km I've had problems with engine ping and so far (I'm not at 66K km)
they did not move forward too much.

SoC does acknowledge that they have few more customers with the same
problem and are "trying to resolve it".

I'm out of patience (since May 2002) and I think pretty much out of
options but to pursue above mentioned if they fail to fix it.

What do you think? I need you opinion.

It is easy to say "sell the car" and move on, but this option is too
expensive. This car is fairly new (2+ years) and only 66K km. It would
have cost me, roughly $10~$15K CDN to switch to anything similar in this
class. I've already explored this option by contacting local car sales
people.

Anyway, I'm also collecting info of anybody (in Canada and US) who has
this problem Legacy/Outback/Forester with AT only, as it appears that
cars with AT are only affected, to send me an e-mail
(e-mail address removed) so I can include them in my letter, if they want.
Otherwise, ignore my request.

Thanks,
VOJA ILIC

 

[Edward Hayes]

I light ping during light acceleration is normal and shows that the ignition
is being advanced for maximum performance. If however you are hearing a hard
knock then to the dealer ASAP. My 2000 2.5 L engine exhibits a slight knock
since new and now has 72,000 trouble free miles on it. If the light pinging
stops then I suspect something is wrong.

 

[Scott McKernon]

Have you tried using a higher octane fuel? This will often times solve the
ping problem which is caused by the fuel igniting before the piston reaches
the top of it's stroke. Years ago I worked in the service dept. of a Subaru
dealership and most Subaru's at the time needed relatively high octane fuel
to run
properly. I don't know if that is still the case, but if you haven't
already, fill 'er up
with super. If that doesn't work, you may have carbon build up on your
pistons and
valves. The build up raises your compression ratio and will thus cause
detonation.
Try using a top engine decarbonizing agent like BG 44K. The stuff can work
wonders.

Good luck.

--
R. Scott McKernon
Store Manager
Olympic Auto Parts
9136 Gaither Rd
Gaithersburg, MD 20874
1-800-472-9360
(e-mail address removed)
www.olyparts.com

 

[Voja]

Yes, I have tried up to 94 AKI fuel that is available here in BC. I've
tried colder spark plugs. I've tried lots of different fuel
cleaners/additives, valve cleaners and intake manifold cleaners. I've
tried different fuel brands (Esso/EXXON, Chevron, Petro Canada, Shell,
ARCO, Husky/Mohawk...). I've tried lighter and heavier engine oil.

They (Don Docksteader Subaru, Richmond Subaru and Specialty Subaru all
in BC) have replaced the following:

- Front A/F sensor
- Knock sensor
- Retarded timing
- "Tried to download" ECU while engine is different mods (idle, under
work load, accelerating, going uphill, etc.) to no avail. I'm not sure
if this last one (happened on July 27th) is only to give me run-around
so they can buy them self more time and/or tire me so eventually I give
up. I don't think this last is going to happen. ;-)

Also, since I'm doing minor maintenance by myself, on last spark plug
change I've noticed that spark plug on cyl. #2 has electrode that is
more worn then other three. It happened only after 5K km and those were
NGK Iridium spark plugs. In other words, these plugs should last much,
much longer then regular copper tip spark plug. Now I have NGK BKR7ES-11
and things are little better but the engine still detonates on light to
moderate throttle when accelerating or going uphill with 92 AKI fuel.

You should have hear it while I was in Las Vegas this summer at 40C
(104F). Man, that engine was pining like crazy on premium fuel. After
that trip I doubt there is any carbon depostis in the engine. 5K km at
130 kmph at 3,000 rpm. No way.

On the other hand SoC does acknowledge that there are few cars with this
problem. I bet there are more in US given the bigger market but people
do not know how/where/what to report.

I was talking to local TV station reporter and the lady was surprised
what I was telling her. No offense, but ladies do not know what to
listen to. What to recognize. How to report it.

Anyway, thanks for your advice. I guess I got one of those
"bad/graveyard shift" cars. ;-) Somebody in Indiana was trying to
resolve his/her problems when my car was build, like I'm doing now. ;-)
Just kidding. I guess that's the only thing that's left for me at the
moment.

Take care,
VOJA ILIC

 

[Danny Russell]

I'm asking for advice if anybody can supply one on this issue. I'm not
the only one that has problems with engine ping/detonation. I know 4
(four) more people that are trying to resolve this but, so far, without
success.

I own an '02 OBS W/4EAT, that ran like crap from delivery. After following this issue for a while,
I've come to the conclusion that a number of '02's were used as test mules to determine whether the
existing hardware could be made to meet SULEV regs with only ECU program changes. Basically SULEV
guinea pig ECU's.

I got my car to run great by tweaking the values at the sensor inputs (IAT sensor, TPS sensor, knock
sensor, rear O2 sensor) and using 93 octane, but I doubt most folks would wanna have to go through
that. I think the problem is fixable via an ECU reflash if SOA would acknowledge it.

An alternative might be to find a boneyard ECU from a model year that seemded to run good and do a
swap. I don't recall hearing any complaints from '03 owners regarding drivability issues like I do
from '02 owners, so that might be the ticket. Might even try that myself. -Danny

 

[CompUser]

I own an '02 OBS W/4EAT, that ran like crap from delivery. After following this issue for a while,
I've come to the conclusion that a number of '02's were used as test mules to determine whether the
existing hardware could be made to meet SULEV regs with only ECU program changes. Basically SULEV
guinea pig ECU's.

I got my car to run great by tweaking the values at the sensor inputs (IAT sensor, TPS sensor, knock
sensor, rear O2 sensor) and using 93 octane, but I doubt most folks would wanna have to go through
that. I think the problem is fixable via an ECU reflash if SOA would acknowledge it.

There was a factory TSB for reflash...at least on
some 02s...this was all I found quickly, but I've
seen it mentioned elsewhere:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=
501065&highlight=dealer+reflash+tsb

 

[Danny Russell]

There was a factory TSB for reflash...at least on
some 02s...this was all I found quickly, but I've
seen it mentioned elsewhere:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=
501065&highlight=dealer+reflash+tsb

Just checked it out, but the reflash appears to be an attempt at curing a reccuring evap-emissions
CEL on the '02 WRX, so I'm not sure it applies in this specific instance. Thanks for the heads-up
tho.

 

[CompUser]

Just checked it out, but the reflash appears to be an attempt at curing a reccuring evap-emissions
CEL on the '02 WRX, so I'm not sure it applies in this specific instance. Thanks for the heads-up
tho.

Roger...but there mighta been more it, than that.
The posts I dug up on it were not the ones I
originally read, reference a TSB reflash.

You look kinda familiar...been over at AGA
lately? ;-)

Ken Gilbert shows up here from time to time, too!

 

[Danny Russell]

Roger...but there mighta been more it, than that.
The posts I dug up on it were not the ones I
originally read, reference a TSB reflash.

I think that the costs associated with archival ends up forcing most of the moderated boards to
severely limit the extent of retrievable posts (timewise). NABISCO has a really high volume of
posting, and it seems like if you don't search for something within a years time or so, there's a
chance it'll dissapear.

You look kinda familiar...been over at AGA
lately? ;-)

Frankly, I've lost the desire to give out free info, primarily for the reason that it's never
appreciated. I've been doing much better giving out the same info at 40/hr. Secondly, an unnamed
fellow running the "AGA Website" seemed to assume the parallel role (in his mind anyway) of "aga ng
moderator", which became annoying. Lastly, the political S/N ratio was getting out of hand, and
coincidently right about the time I began calling people down on their lack of critical thinking
skills regarding the specific chain of events that occured on the morning of 9/11, my ability to
log-on to newsgroups became sporadic, go figure. After making a passing comment regarding possible
Israeli/Mossad involvement, my log-on requirements like username and password kept changing at
random. Coincidence? Obviously.

Ken Gilbert shows up here from time to time, too!

Kiss my ass Ken! LOL!!!!!!

 

[CompUser]

I think that the costs associated with archival ends up forcing most of the moderated boards to
severely limit the extent of retrievable posts (timewise).

True, but not as true as it used to be even five
years ago. I've seen it this year, since I only
had the opportunity to really follow NASIOC since
January or so. So, it was mentioned within past
few months.

I went over to NHTSA.org...there's 44 TSBs out of
the MY02 Impreza!!

Frankly, I've lost the desire to give out free info, primarily for the reason that it's never
appreciated. I've been doing much better giving out the same info at 40/hr.

Glad to hear that.

Secondly, an unnamed
fellow running the "AGA Website" seemed to assume the parallel role (in his mind anyway) of "aga ng
moderator", which became annoying.

If it's Miles, IIRC the server/hosting is on his
machine <shrugs>. Kent's been gone for a few
months now, still gigging along AFAIK. Roy B.
(biasbros) has abandoned it out of annoyance with
the political crap and business, he's down the
road from me...LV, Ned, Bob, Scott Colburn &
Roccaforte are pretty much same as usual.

Lastly, the political S/N ratio was getting out of hand,

Yeah, it's still staying pretty high, with
election year and all. Even furriners like Chris
Berry are opining on who we *really* need ;-)

After making a passing comment regarding possible
Israeli/Mossad involvement,

They're good, but they ain't *that* good ;-)

Kiss my ass Ken! LOL!!!!!!

Hey, he's got a rockin' WRX wagon...an 02 I
think, in fact!

Steve

 

[Frank Pyatt]

I own an '02 OBS W/4EAT, that ran like crap from delivery. After

following this issue for a while,

I've come to the conclusion that a number of '02's were used as test mules to determine whether the
existing hardware could be made to meet SULEV regs with only ECU program changes. Basically SULEV
guinea pig ECU's.

I got my car to run great by tweaking the values at the sensor inputs (IAT sensor, TPS sensor, knock
sensor, rear O2 sensor) and using 93 octane, but I doubt most folks would wanna have to go through
that. I think the problem is fixable via an ECU reflash if SOA would acknowledge it.

An alternative might be to find a boneyard ECU from a model year that seemded to run good and do a
swap. I don't recall hearing any complaints from '03 owners regarding drivability issues like I do
from '02 owners, so that might be the ticket. Might even try that self. -Danny

Nope. My '03 Legacy GT sedan has the same pinging problem. You can even
hear it faintly at highway speed if it's warm enough outside. I'm writing
my letter to SoC tomorrow for this, and a few other issues with the
car.....Frank.

 

[Danny Russell]

Nope. My '03 Legacy GT sedan has the same pinging problem. You can even
hear it faintly at highway speed if it's warm enough outside. I'm writing
my letter to SoC tomorrow for this, and a few other issues with the
car.....Frank.

So much for that idea. :^)

I think the big bore and short stroke conspire to make the Sube less tolerant of combustion chamber
deposits than would be a similar engine with an undersquare configuration, so keeping the chambers
de-carboned helps. The old water-spray method is as viable as it ever was. Use the vacuum port on
the TB to suck ice water out of a jar in controlled fashion after thoroughly warming the motor.

You can parallel a resistor (22k) across the output of the rear O2 sensor to drop it's voltage by a
certain percentage. The ECU then thinks that the average mixture or "long-term fuel" is a little
lean and shifts the lambda target up to compensate, so in effect you fool the engine into running
just a wee bit richer during part-throttle (closed-loop) operation.

A trace of occasional spark knock on hot days isn't going to hurt anything. Typically it happens at
2500 RPM at 1/3 throttle applied, A/C on. It's the heavy, continuous knocking under heavy load that
becomes detrimental, so as long as you're not getting any of that, your most likely OK.

 

[Voja]

_*Godfrey Smith of Don Docksteader Subaru (1.604.323.2233), Vancouver,
BC, Canada and Christina Morris from Subaru of Canada (1.905.568.4959 /
391) (BTW she is the one you need to talk to re. your car problems if
you bought your car in Canada)*_ told me last time I talked to them that
they have few (they didn't want to elaborate how many is "few") 2002 and
2003 Legacy/Outback/Forester models with auto transmission with the same
problem as I have.

Last time I was in their (Don Docksteader) service shop they tried to
"download" ECU program so they can send it to Subaru Japan for analyze.

I'm not sure if this is a run-around they are giving me so they can buy
some more time, but I'm fed up with their excuses.

Voja

 

[zeddakonia]

I have a Forester 2.5 X AT - australia, 17,000 KM -started hearing engine
ping after about 4000 KM onwards. So far no resolution of the issue from
the service centre here - they have performed stock standard upper engine
clean more then 6-7 times by now.
Problem eases when I add new high quality fuel - but after driving for
about 100 Kms the ping reappears. By the looks of it if seems somethings
wrong with Subaru japans ECU firmware maps - but until those tweedwids
admit it nothings gonna happen. The service centre guys have no relavent
fault code or repair process defined in their instructions book.

Please keep us updated about your progress, as I am considering launching
some sort of action against subaru locally in australia as well.

Good luck.

 

[Danny Russell]

I have a Forester 2.5 X AT - australia, 17,000 KM -started hearing engine
ping after about 4000 KM onwards. So far no resolution of the issue from
the service centre here - they have performed stock standard upper engine
clean more then 6-7 times by now.
Problem eases when I add new high quality fuel - but after driving for
about 100 Kms the ping reappears. By the looks of it if seems somethings
wrong with Subaru japans ECU firmware maps - but until those tweedwids
admit it nothings gonna happen. The service centre guys have no relavent
fault code or repair process defined in their instructions book.

Please keep us updated about your progress, as I am considering launching
some sort of action against subaru locally in australia as well.

Good luck.

"TWEEDWIDS"!!! LOL! God I love it! The one I do before I die is visit OZ for a bit just to soak
up the culture. The euphemisms are the greatest advertisement for tourism IMO.

 

[Danny Russell]

Methinks I'm a tweedwid. Let's try that again:


gotta
^

 

[Paul Braun]

A trace of occasional spark knock on hot days isn't going to hurt anything. Typically it happens at
2500 RPM at 1/3 throttle applied, A/C on. It's the heavy, continuous knocking under heavy load that
becomes detrimental, so as long as you're not getting any of that, your most likely OK.

I brought my '01 RS (74k mi) in yesterday because it had that 2k -
2.8k ping and also because the CEL had come on last week for a couple
days.

I have to bring it back in a week or so when the district service
manager is at the dealership -- this is according to the service
manual which, and I'm quoting here, said that the problem was caused
by "possible deterioration of multiple parts" and he has to inspect
the car.

I don't really like the sound of that.

However, if the DM needs to see it, it may be a recall item in the
making and I may get all the work done free.

So far, I've had to have my cat replaced (under warranty), my knock
sensor (under warranty) and my flywheel/clutch (also under warranty).
That last one took some convincing, since it had been doing the
shudder thing for a while, but when I found out from here what the
problem was, I was 2000mi past warranty.

Now, if I could get all the dents from the parking lot at work covered
under warranty.....

I'll post back after I find out what they're going to do.

Paul