Educated Guess on a starter problem.. consensus?? (also, Seattle*good* shops for info)

[nobody >]

My 2000 OB has developed a case of "reluctant starting".

When the engine is cold, it may take 4-20 tries with the key to get
cranking.

When the engine is warm, first try works every time.

My guess is the starter solenoid (which part of the starter - correct??)
is the culprit, and not the ignition switch. The "warm engine >> OK"
seems to support this guess as engine heat wouldn't affect the switch.

What I don't understand is that I don't hear the usual "click" of the
solenoid trying to engage when it fails to work. There's no noticeable
dimming of either the headlights or the dash lights either.

From lots of prior (non-Soobie) solenoid failures, 99.9% of the time
the contacts are bad but the plunger still moves enough to make noise,
and draws enough current to see a little bit of dimming.

This make me think the coil of the solenoid is intermittently open, but
that's bass-ackwards with usual temperature-intermittent failure modes.
Expansion with heat tends to "open" broken connections.

This is probably just an academic issue, as I'm having the starter
replaced Thursday by Smart Service in Shoreline/North Seattle. My back
says I don't lean over under car hoods much anymore.
Smart Service quoted me $106 for the starter plus labor ~ 1/2 hour, I'm
OK with that.

Just as info for new readers of alt.autos.subaru in the Seattle area:

Smart Service (Subaru) is a great Soob independent shop, with 2 shops,
Shoreline and Mukilteo.
http://www.smart-service.com/index.html
I know they have loyal customers from Mt. Vernon and Sultan (both about
an hour's drive away) as I've talked with them while having work done.

Another good shop that's at least quite Soobie aware is CK Automotive
just off Aurora (Hwy 99) on 100th in Seattle.
http://seattle.citysearch.com/profile/10802616/seattle_wa/c_k_automotive.html

I've seen both shops do quick diagnosis jobs and refer them to other
places without charge. I've also been impressed with both as to how they
handle "non-mechanically minded" customers (like my wife) without taking
advantage of them.

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

My 2000 OB has developed a case of "reluctant starting".

When the engine is cold, it may take 4-20 tries with the key to get
cranking.

When the engine is warm, first try works every time.

My guess is the starter solenoid (which part of the starter - correct??)
  is the culprit, and not the ignition switch. The "warm engine >> OK"
seems to support this guess as engine heat wouldn't affect the switch.

What I don't understand is that I don't hear the usual "click" of the
solenoid trying to engage when it fails to work. There's no noticeable
dimming of either the headlights or the dash lights either.

 From lots of prior (non-Soobie) solenoid failures, 99.9% of the time
the contacts are bad but the plunger still moves enough to make noise,
and draws enough current to see a little bit of dimming.

This make me think the coil of the solenoid is intermittently open, but
that's bass-ackwards with usual temperature-intermittent failure modes.
Expansion with heat tends to "open" broken connections.

This is probably just an academic issue, as I'm having the starter
replaced Thursday by Smart Service in Shoreline/North Seattle. My back
says I don't lean over under car hoods much anymore.
Smart Service  quoted me $106 for the starter plus labor ~ 1/2 hour, I'm
OK with that.

Just as info for new readers of alt.autos.subaru in the Seattle area:

Smart Service (Subaru) is a great Soob independent shop, with 2 shops,
Shoreline and Mukilteo.
     http://www.smart-service.com/index.html
I know they have loyal customers from Mt. Vernon and Sultan (both about
an hour's drive away) as I've talked with them while having work done.

Another good shop that's at least quite Soobie aware is CK Automotive
just off Aurora (Hwy 99) on 100th in Seattle.http://seattle.citysearch.com/profile/10802616/seattle_wa/c_k_automot...

I've seen both shops do quick diagnosis jobs and refer them to other
places without charge. I've also been impressed with both as to how they
handle "non-mechanically minded" customers (like my wife) without taking
advantage of them.

To me, this seems more like bad battery cables. Sometimes they can be
deceiving if corrosion gets inside the insulation.


let us know what you find out.


Carl
1 Lucky Texan

 

[nobody >]

To me, this seems more like bad battery cables. Sometimes they can be
deceiving if corrosion gets inside the insulation.


let us know what you find out.


Carl
1 Lucky Texan

Bad battery cables, either hot or ground, would cause the headlights and
dash lights to dim *considerably*, even more than the dimming seen when
the starter works right and is cranking.

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

8< snip >8






Bad battery cables, either hot or ground, would cause the headlights and
dash lights to dim *considerably*, even more than the dimming seen when
the starter works right and is cranking.

Hmmm... yeah, even if there weren't enough current to pull the
solenoid in( he says no 'click'), I guess it's own coil would still
cause the dimming.
Perhaps it is the switch in the column?

I'd still be tempted to examine the cables.

Also, I might take a length of 2x4 in the car and the next time it
behaves as if it won't start, whack the starter and try again. If this
trick regularly works - bad starter/solenoid.

weird


Carl

 

[GEO]

Hmmm... yeah, even if there weren't enough current to pull the
solenoid in( he says no 'click'), I guess it's own coil would still
cause the dimming.
Perhaps it is the switch in the column?

I'd still be tempted to examine the cables.

Also, I might take a length of 2x4 in the car and the next time it
behaves as if it won't start, whack the starter and try again. If this
trick regularly works - bad starter/solenoid.

weird

Carl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Had a 94 Ranger that had several starters "go bad". Had a no crank
condition after 5 good starts. Changed starter and relay. Still no
good. Sent truck to a shop and they came back with an INTERNAL break
in the power wire from the relay to the solenoid. He gave me the wire
and I tested it myself with an ohm meter and sure enough, the
continuity was good until I flexed the wire and it broke contact.
Check the wires completely. Even if they look good they may not be.

GRIZ

 

[Asbjørn]

Hmmm... yeah, even if there weren't enough current to pull the
solenoid in( he says no 'click'), I guess it's own coil would still
cause the dimming.
Perhaps it is the switch in the column?

I'd still be tempted to examine the cables.

Also, I might take a length of 2x4 in the car and the next time it
behaves as if it won't start, whack the starter and try again. If this
trick regularly works - bad starter/solenoid.

weird

Carl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Had a 94 Ranger that had several starters "go bad". Had a no crank
condition after 5 good starts. Changed starter and relay. Still no
good. Sent truck to a shop and they came back with an INTERNAL break
in the power wire from the relay to the solenoid. He gave me the wire
and I tested it myself with an ohm meter and sure enough, the
continuity was good until I flexed the wire and it broke contact.
Check the wires completely. Even if they look good they may not be.

GRIZ


Had a somewhat similar experience with a Toyota, and after years of research
and switcing parts we found that the cause was a corroded connection at the
transmission end of the battery negative cable.
After sanding and thigtening that the problem never occured again.
The conductivity was temperature and moisture dependent.
But this could also be a bad solenoid (break in coil or binding plunger)
or a bad immobiliser or alarm start cirquit breaker.

Asbjørn

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

Had a 94 Ranger that had several starters "go bad". Had a no crank
condition after 5 good starts. Changed starter and relay. Still no
good. Sent truck to a shop and they came back with an INTERNAL break
in the power wire from the relay to the solenoid. He gave me the wire
and I tested it myself with an ohm meter and sure enough, the
continuity was good until I flexed the wire and it broke contact.
Check the wires completely. Even if they look good they may not be.

GRIZ

Had a somewhat similar experience with a Toyota, and after years of research
and switcing parts we found that the cause was a corroded connection at the
transmission end of the battery negative cable.
After sanding and thigtening that  the problem never occured again.
The conductivity was temperature and moisture dependent.
But this could also be a bad solenoid (break in coil or binding plunger)
or a bad immobiliser or alarm start cirquit breaker.

Asbjørn

Oh good post, is the OP's car ant automatic? Could be the neutral
safety switch. Try starting in neutral or 'jiggling' the shifter next
time there's failure to start.

Isn't there a safety switch on the clutch too?

carl

 

[nobody >]

Oh good post, is the OP's car ant automatic? Could be the neutral
safety switch. Try starting in neutral or 'jiggling' the shifter next
time there's failure to start.

Isn't there a safety switch on the clutch too?

carl

All of the above are valid and elusive problems, and I have seen many
similar ones in my past.

I just got back from Smart Service, and it was the usual:
STARTER SOLENOID CONTACTS....

$120 and they did cable cleaning and a few other "little things" in that
bill.

They still had a decent amount of copper left, but definitely pitted.
They were worse than the ones they have on the "wall of shame" they use
to explain problems to customers. Mine are going on the wall instead.

It's frustrating to get old and "broke-down". 10 years ago, I could lean
over and do the job myself. A few wrenches, a file (or even a pocket
knife or the Leatherman I keep in the glovebox) and could have done it
in less than a half-hour.

If nothing else, this thread has put lots of good information out for
the newbies and Google searchers.

 

[1 Lucky Texan]

All of the above are valid and elusive problems, and I have seen many
similar ones in my past.

I just got back from Smart Service, and it was the usual:
STARTER SOLENOID CONTACTS....

$120 and they did cable cleaning and a few other "little things" in that
bill.

They still had a decent amount of copper left, but definitely pitted.
They were worse than the ones they have on the "wall of shame" they use
to explain problems to customers. Mine are going on the wall instead.

It's frustrating to get old and "broke-down". 10 years ago, I could lean
over and do the job myself. A few wrenches, a file (or even a pocket
knife or the Leatherman I keep in the glovebox) and could have done it
in less than a half-hour.

If nothing else, this thread has put lots of good information out for
the newbies and Google searchers.

Thanx for coming back after the fix.
Sometimes folks don't and the thread becomes useless if people search
for there own similar problems.

Carl

 

[nobody >]

Thanx for coming back after the fix.
Sometimes folks don't and the thread becomes useless if people search
for there own similar problems.

Carl

I accept the thankx

It's just good payback for all the good info I've found here.