All-wheel-drive and low traction

[Mark T.B. Carroll]

I was reading that the AWD works better to maintain traction when the
wheels have more power going to them, but in ice and snow people often
recommend that you use a higher gear. Is there any contradiction here?

-- Mark

 

[strchild]

Having driven AWD in ice and snow, I would not recommend a higher gear,
instead, gearing down to slow the car for more stable handling under slick
conditions. Seems easier to break traction in high gear when you have
little to begin with, but maybe the other forum posters will have more
insight.

Just my two cents,

~Brian

 

[bgd]

Whatever works: works. Your post scares me. Are we on the same roads? I
just got runoff recently by an 80's camaro. I bet he would have asked
something like this...
Easy steps to follow:
1. Stomp on throttle in safe place, do donuts and powerslides until
questions like this disappear.
2. Slam on brakes, make it slide, in said safe place, and learn
3. LEARN your darn car.

Holy cow. I am gong to hide in inclement weather. Not because of the
weather...

 

[nobody >]

Whatever works: works. Your post scares me. Are we on the same roads? I
just got runoff recently by an 80's camaro. I bet he would have asked
something like this...
Easy steps to follow:
1. Stomp on throttle in safe place, do donuts and powerslides until
questions like this disappear.
2. Slam on brakes, make it slide, in said safe place, and learn
3. LEARN your darn car.

Holy cow. I am gong to hide in inclement weather. Not because of the
weather...

From the previous posts, I gather that the first two posters have never
done 1, 2, or 3.

I've found that a higher gear (second with A/T, second or third with
M/T) always works better except for two cases.

1) Going up a steep uphill that's been heavily sanded. Light foot
though! Try the higher gear first!

2) Slow creep in traffic, but even then try the higher gear first.

I've lost count over the years of the "low gear/punch it" school of
thought folks that are on the side of the road, off in the ditch, or
(worse yet) totally stalled in what was a moving stream of traffic.

Then there's the "totally slow is best" that poop out at the first small
rise and stop everyone else.

 

[isquat]

I was reading that the AWD works better to maintain traction when the
wheels have more power going to them, but in ice and snow people often

Stop reading trash.

recommend that you use a higher gear. Is there any contradiction here?

No. As the road gets slicker you have to be smoother with the throttle
brakes and the steering wheel. Higher gear probably helps a lot of
people
to be smoother since the already lackluster subaru throttle response
gets
even worse and you can't really have any jerkiness while accelerating
and lugging the engine at the same time.
I floor my OBS on snow with all season tires (the dreaded RE92s)
and it starts going with little to no wheelspin, but would not dare
such a feat
on slick ice. It's all about learning of the limits of your tires
on the surface at hand and the way the heft of the pigley that rides
on them
is handled by the problem between the steering wheel and the brakes.

For really moronic operators driving on slick surfaces for the first
time
I can complement the recommendation for using higher gear with
a recommendation to use parking brakes for stopping :-D

 

[Mark T.B. Carroll]

From the previous posts, I gather that the first two posters have never
done 1, 2, or 3.

Ah, then you need to read more carefully, because I didn't actually say
anything about what I've tried. In practice, I have tried sliding
around, etc., and I generally find that in the STi I do best in lower
gears but being careful not change the wheel speed or change direction
too fast (i.e. maintain reasonable rpms, but be gentle on the steering,
brakes, and on throttle movement). The FWD approach of steering into
skids seems to work well. Just because I read other people's advice and
wonder how right they are doesn't mean that that's /all/ I do!

It's hard to compare with other cars I've slid around in, though: it's
clearly better, but I've only had FWD, RWD or 4WD before: the Subaru AWD
works very well, but it's weirdly /different/. One thing that I wished
regular driving instruction covered, but that I had to learn afterwards,
was how differently to drive such different systems in bad conditions.

-- Mark

 

[Ja]

I was reading that the AWD works better to maintain traction when the
wheels have more power going to them, but in ice and snow people often
recommend that you use a higher gear. Is there any contradiction here?

-- Mark

Using a lower gear at a given speed will produce more torque to the
drive wheels. That's why you downshift when climbing hills. High
torque on slick surfaces can cause the wheels to break loose and loose
traction.

 

[Oscar_Lives]

Using a lower gear at a given speed will produce more torque to the
drive wheels. That's why you downshift when climbing hills. High
torque on slick surfaces can cause the wheels to break loose and loose
traction.

Right. That is why you should let up on the throttle if you start to break
loose and lose traction.

 

[isquat]

"nobody >" <(e-mail address removed)> writes:

regular driving instruction covered, but that I had to learn afterwards,
was how differently to drive such different systems in bad conditions.

They ain't no bad conditions for a Subaru. They are bad
conditions for one wheel drivers. They are fun conditions
for a subaru.

 

[strchild]

My apologies for the miscommunication. When I said "gearing down to slow
the car" I was talking about downshifting for the sake of engine breaking,
not added torque.

~Brian

 

[JD]

For the same speed, you will have lower RPM in a higher gear; which implies
lower torque. I always go one gear higher than on dry roads and keep the
RPM low. Itis easier to keep traction that way.

 

[DK]

For the same speed, you will have lower RPM in a higher gear; which implies
lower torque. I always go one gear higher than on dry roads and keep the
RPM low. Itis easier to keep traction that way.

I don't get it. How's that lower torque helps to keep traction?

DK

 

[nobody >]

I don't get it. How's that lower torque helps to keep traction?

DK

Higher torque is far more likely to cause the tires to slip/spin because
there's more power available to break the tenuous bond between the tire
and the snow. A slipping/spinning tire has far less traction (and
directional control) than one that's got less torque applied and isn't
spinning.

 

[Oscar_Lives]

Higher torque is far more likely to cause the tires to slip/spin because
there's more power available to break the tenuous bond between the tire
and the snow. A slipping/spinning tire has far less traction (and
directional control) than one that's got less torque applied and isn't
spinning.

So, just let up on the gas a bit...

 

[nobody >]

So, just let up on the gas a bit...

That works, but it can also cause that break in traction going the other
way (from engine braking).

The throttle vs traction pushmepullyou is far harder to deal with in a
lower gear.

Why the big argument? Go out and try using both a lower and a higher
gear on ice/snow/grease/whatever. If you feel you can control staying in
that skinny window of traction in low gear, go ahead and do it. Just
don't block my way or hit me when you find that a throttle-foot twitch
cause you to break traction.

 

[bugalugs]

So, just let up on the gas a bit...

Or pull up your parking brake 4 or 5 clicks.

 

[JD]

I don't get it. How's that lower torque helps to keep traction?

DK

Higher torque makes it easier to break loose on ice.

 

[JD]

So, just let up on the gas a bit...

You can only do that to a point. Also, it is much harder to properly
modulate the throttle on ice if the revs are high; particulary on a
turbocharged car. It is easier to just shift to one gear higher and keep
the revs low.

I drive on ice several months of the year. Low revs and a higher gear are
much more forgiving on slippery surfaces than trying to modulate the
throttle at higher revs.

 

[JD]

Or pull up your parking brake 4 or 5 clicks.

Great way to face traffic

 

[isquat]

You can only do that to a point. Also, it is much harder to properly
modulate the throttle on ice if the revs are high; particulary on a
turbocharged car. It is easier to just shift to one gear higher and keep
the revs low.

I drive on ice several months of the year. Low revs and a higher gear are
much more forgiving on slippery surfaces than trying to modulate the
throttle at higher revs.

I wish FHI just shut off or lowered the boost in the "intelligent"
mode of si-drive
and put a note in the manual to use that on ice. This way people
with cars with turbo in sport and sport sharp modes would not have
to suffer the turbo lag. Is that doable? I think so.
What I have little explanation for is why there is such a sloooow
throttle
response on the 2.5 with no turbo, but it looks like someone in FHI
marketing
is keeping customers for idiots. And what's really discomforting is
that
they are not alone. Mazda just joined the ranks with the high gearing
on Mazdaspeed 3. I guess it's the corrupting influence of the big
three
from Detrua. Those have robbed their customers of power
thru the losses in transmissions for decades. This way they look good
on the spec sheet with high hp/torque and still make friends with EPA.
Very clever.